No more SBRs

SB281 Blaster · Mar 28, 2014

Meet the Handgun Roster Board as described in SB211 2000. Now they will be reviewing all SBRs to be sold/transferred in this state.

6 36J.
7 (a) (1) There is a Handgun Roster Board in the Department of State Police.
8 (2) The Board shall consist of [9] 11 members, appointed by the
9 Governor with the advice and consent of the Senate, each of whom shall serve for a
10 term of 4 years.
11 (3) The members of the Board shall be:
12 (i) The Secretary;
13 (ii) A representative of the Association of Chiefs of Police;
14 (iii) A representative of the Maryland State's Attorneys' Association;
15 (iv) A handgun dealer, a gunsmith, or a representative of a handgun
16 manufacturer;
17 (v) A representative of the National Rifle Association or its
18 affiliated State association, who is a resident of the State;
19 (vi) A representative of the Marylanders Against Handgun Abuse;
20 and
21 (vii) [3] 5 citizen members, 2 OF WHOM SHALL BE MECHANICAL OR
22 ELECTRICAL ENGINEERS.
23 (4) The Secretary shall serve as Chairman of the Board.
24 (5) The Board shall meet at the request of the Chairman of the Board or
25 by request of a majority of the members.

IMBLITZVT · Mar 28, 2014

TNW said:
Would this only apply to certain SBRs?
Because it seems as if the following is still ok:
Colt HBAR
Form 1 to SBR it
Remains Over 29" OAL
Remains HBAR
Only evil feature is flash hider

Doesn't that prevent it from being a copycat and ALG?

Well the MSP letter does not address ALGs... which is a big open hole... So what happens to standard SBR AR15s. Remember an AGL can not be a copy cat... so... who the hell knows. My guess is MSP will back step on this SBR and SBS being banned before we get an answer.

clandestine said:
I disagree. They clarified already muddy water. People just don't like the clarification.

An HBAR has never been defined based on length in MD or a federal level.

I think they just stated what they said and back stepped on the all SBRs are Banned. According to them now, only copy cats of Rifles would be banned as SBRs. Still muddy as shit when it comes to ALGs but at least we know where they are coming from.

HBAR has never been an issues either way federally has it? So its whatever MSP decides for today and changes tomorrow. One thing is for sure, a Shortened HBAR sure is not as heavy!

Frankly with all this, there are still so many questions... I don't know how anyone could pretend to know how this will turn out.

SneakySh0rty · Mar 28, 2014

tc617 said:
I have purchased SBR length uppers with heavy barrels. I even have a 7.5" AR pistol with a heavy barrel.

TNW said:
If you could shoot me a PM with where you got your barrels that would be great. Really looking for an HBAR 10.3 or 10.5

PM me as well please.

Also can someone clarify the specifications/criteria for a HBAR again?

I see .750 as a common answer but at what part of the barrel?

TNW · Mar 28, 2014

SneakySh0rty said:
PM me as well please.

Also can someone clarify the specifications/criteria for a HBAR again?

I see .750 as a common answer but at what part of the barrel?

I think .750 at its thinnest point... Does that mean barrels that use a .750 gas block are good to go?

SneakySh0rty · Mar 28, 2014

TNW said:
I think .750 at its thinnest point... Does that mean barrels that use a .750 gas block are good to go?

Wouldnt a barrel need to be slightly under .750 for a .750 gas block to slide it over the gas port? If you said, before the gas port, barrel must be no less than .750 then i would say, that makes sense. No pencil or lightweight barrels would pass that. But after the gas port...

TNW · Mar 28, 2014

SneakySh0rty said:
Wouldnt a barrel need to be slightly under .750 for a .750 gas block to slide it over the gas port? If you said, before the gas port, barrel must be no less than .750 then i would say, that makes sense. No pencil or lightweight barrels would pass that. But after the gas port...

Trying to find alternatives now, I'll post any if I find them. Does anyone know what has been used as the definition of HBAR other than what the manufacturer says? Is it over .750 behind the handguard?

clandestine · Mar 28, 2014

TNW said:
Trying to find alternatives now, I'll post any if I find them. Does anyone know what has been used as the definition of HBAR other than what the manufacturer says? Is it over .750 behind the handguard?

As Smith I would say that any Barrel that's at least .700+ in FRONT of the Gas Block Seat (Not counting Muzzle Threads), .750+ diameter for the Gas Block Seat, and .750+ BEHIND the Gas Block Seat would be considered a Heavy Barrel.

Theres no need for alternatives. Just buy a 16" HBAR Barrel and have ADCO whack it to 10.5" and thread it. Done.

SB281 Blaster · Mar 28, 2014

erwos said:
tc617, sorry, but I don't think that logic really works.

You missed the "OR" word. As long as your barrel is under 16", it's an SBR, no matter what it was from.

In the proceeding sentence before the "OR" it states "a rifle that has". IMO a pistol listed on the rooster is not a rifle and never has been. If you SBR such pistol, copycat cannot apply because it only applies to rifles. Additionally, since it is already on the roster the SBR of such pistol can be transferred.

bobthefisher · Mar 28, 2014

Hmmm the advisory addresses "Short-Barreled Shotguns and Short-Barreled Rifles", no mention of machineguns, AOW's, DD's, or silencers. Therefore, I must remain ignorant on those topics, and continue to purchase those items as usual while abiding by state and federal law.

F-U O'Malley

SB281 Blaster · Mar 28, 2014

clandestine said:
I agree 100% ad I have stated that in the past. Doing a Form 1 is manufacturing a NEW firearm in the eyes of ATF. No matter how much people want to play with words, its making a new gun. The question is, does the MSP follow the same line of reasoning. Logic would say that ATF guidelines are vailid unless the MSP say otherwise.

The way I see it, MSP had us do all the paperwork and background checks on stripped lowers as regulated FIREARMS. In their eyes these were ALGs or handguns. I did not matter to them if they were complete or not. They considered them to be firearms and made us wait 8 days to cool down before using them. This being the case, there is no way in my mind they can pretend a firearm is NOW being manufactured.

SneakySh0rty · Mar 28, 2014

From the Advisory

III. Possession of “Copycat” weapon
A short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun that meets the definition of "copycat weapon" set forth in CR § 4-301(e) (for example, "a semi-automatic centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 29 inches" or "a semi-automatic shotgun that has a folding stock") is an "assault weapon" and subject to the restrictions on transportation, possession, sale and receipt set forth in Title 4, Subtitle 3, of the Criminal Law Article.

From SB281

CR § 4-301(e)
(e) (1) “Copycat weapon” means:
(i) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has any two of the following:
1. a folding stock;
2. a grenade launcher or flare launcher; or
3. a flash suppressor;
(ii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds;
(iii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 29 inches;
(iv) a semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds;
(v) a semiautomatic shotgun that has a folding stock; or
(vi) a shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
(2) “Copycat weapon” does not include an assault long gun or an assault pistol.

I am confused.
Since AR15 except for HBARs are banned ALGs. By their own definition, they are not copycat weapons. Therefore, cannot be held to the copycat test?

Since HBARs are NOT considered banned ALGs, so they are subject to the copycat test?

Basically,

make an SBR out of a grandfathered ALG = no other requirements besides BATFE standards
make an SBR out of a HBAR rifle or any legal host = must comply with copycat test

Obviously this is ignoring the fact that MSP is considering SBRs as handguns and rifles

TyFromMD · Mar 28, 2014

But if it's less than 26", it can't be a copycat weapon because at <26" it's a handgun.

TNW · Mar 28, 2014

Would barrel profile matter for a 10.5 piston upper? I could always go that route...

How much of this could be avoided by going that route?

Abacab · Mar 28, 2014

clandestine said:
I agree 100% ad I have stated that in the past. Doing a Form 1 is manufacturing a NEW firearm in the eyes of ATF. No matter how much people want to play with words, its making a new gun. The question is, does the MSP follow the same line of reasoning. Logic would say that ATF guidelines are vailid unless the MSP say otherwise.

During the 94 AWB if you had a pre ban AR15 with the "evil" features and decided to SBR the gun in 1995 it was no longer considered a "pre ban" and could no longer have more than one evil feature.

I say the same about how people measure OAL. Theres several shops making 2013FSA compliant guns by adding muzzle devices to make the OAL over 29" BUT they are not pinning the device. ATF has long said that if the muzzle device isn't pinned it does not count for OAL.

Did the ATF formulate and pass the 2013 FSA? As far as I know, the AG and MSP are not bound by the ATF's method of devising OAL. The rifles already meet federal minimum lengths. Maryland's OAL requirement says nothing about permanent muzzle devices.

You keep harping on the ATF's method while glossing over simple federalism.

clandestine · Mar 28, 2014

Abacab said:
Did the ATF formulate and pass the 2013 FSA? As far as I know, the AG and MSP are not bound by the ATF's method of devising OAL. The rifles already meet federal minimum lengths. Maryland's OAL requirement says nothing about permanent muzzle devices.

You keep harping on the ATF's method while glossing over simple federalism.

Nor does MD say the OAL is measured with the stock extended so are you measuring OAL with it closed since ATF guidelines dont count? So you'll grasp one part of federal guidelines for your benefit your case open or extended stock to gain an OAL measurement) and discard the barrel portion right?

I was right about this when everyone told me I was wrong. I'm right about the OAL measurements too.

Perhaps my statements bother you for some other reason.

Abacab · Mar 28, 2014

clandestine said:
Nor does MD say the OAL is measured with the stock extended so are you measuring OAL with it closed since ATF guidelines dont count? So you'll grasp one part of federal guidelines for your benefit your case open or extended stock to gain an OAL measurement) and discard the barrel portion right?

I was right about this when everyone told me I was wrong. I'm right about the OAL measurements too.

Perhaps my statements bother you for some other reason.

Are you trying to make a point? What is your point? I never contended you had to follow federal guidelines on the OAL other than meeting the bare minimum of 26 inches for a rifle per US Gov't and 29" per Maryland.

You seem to think you've got some magical point that I follow one portion of the OAL and not the other. You don't. All you have done is validated what I said - Maryland makes no specification per the OAL other than 29".

Unlike you, I'm not responding to everyone in a tremendously smug fashion acting as if I am right on every count. You're not.

IMBLITZVT · Mar 28, 2014

SneakySh0rty said:
From the Advisory
I am confused.
Since AR15 except for HBARs are banned ALGs. By their own definition, they are not copycat weapons. Therefore, cannot be held to the copycat test?

Since HBARs are NOT considered banned ALGs, so they are subject to the copycat test?
...

If you look at the way the law is written, a HBAR is still a ALG, its just not a banned one. So by my read it can not be a copy cat since no ALG can be a copy cat.

Abacab said:
Did the ATF formulate and pass the 2013 FSA? As far as I know, the AG and MSP are not bound by the ATF's method of devising OAL. The rifles already meet federal minimum lengths. Maryland's OAL requirement says nothing about permanent muzzle devices.

You keep harping on the ATF's method while glossing over simple federalism.

I have to side with Clandestine on this. Since there is a lack of MD guidance on a gun that is federally regulated, its a fair assumption to use Federal standards. OAL could include a bayonet's blade too but... not likely. ATF methods are fairly well recognized and unless state law specifically says otherwise, its the standard. MD just uses to many other ATF standards to say different.

clandestine · Mar 28, 2014

Abacab said:
Are you trying to make a point? What is your point? I never contended you had to follow federal guidelines on the OAL other than meeting the bare minimum of 26 inches for a rifle per US Gov't and 29" per Maryland.

You seem to think you've got some magical point that I follow one portion of the OAL and not the other. You don't. All you have done is validated what I said - Maryland makes no specification per the OAL other than 29".

Unlike you, I'm not responding to everyone in a tremendously smug fashion acting as if I am right on every count. You're not.

ATF is has ruled on measuring OAL and there's documentation. Those who make up their own rules are going to have problems with the MSP. OAL is measured with the stock open and extended and with the muzzle device removed, unless permanent.

If it makes you feel better I'm planning on requesting documentation from the MSP and I have attached the ATF letter in my request.

I have also requested a technical definition on HBAR.

SB281 Blaster · Mar 28, 2014

I start with a handgun on the Handgun Roster. I add a stock. Then suddenly it becomes a center fire rifle subject to Copycat provisions. Then magically, somehow, it turns back into a handgun when I am transporting and/or transferring it. Sorry Charlie it can’t be both ways. It’s either a handgun or a rifle, not both. MSP has no business taking the most restrictive language from all the laws and applying it in this manner. It’s overstepping and …, well I won’t say any more.

Abacab · Mar 28, 2014

clandestine said:
ATF is has ruled on measuring OAL and there's documentation. Those who make up their own rules are going to have problems with the MSP. OAL is measured with the stock open and extended and with the muzzle device removed, unless permanent.

Once again you've dodged the basic point that the ATF's method has no bearing on a Maryland restriction of 29" when Maryland law does not define method of measuring OAL.

clandestine said:
If it makes you feel better I'm planning on requesting documentation from the MSP and I have attached the ATF letter in my request.

I have also requested a technical definition on HBAR.

Thank you for doing that. You're the reason gun owners are continually screwed over because you can't just shut up. You have to get a ruling as if to prove something. No doubt they will go with the most strict interpretation possible. Colt branded HBARs only and federal methodology in regards to OAL. Thanks again.

No more SBRs

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