Ab_Normal
Ab_member
Saw that video posted by EP Armory on FB. I guess they didn't follow the restraining order.
Yeah, so much for following the law/rules - that is only for chumps.
Saw that video posted by EP Armory on FB. I guess they didn't follow the restraining order.
EP didnt send one of these lowers to the ATF to get a determination letter.
I read this on another forum.
That was dumb on thier part.
If true, where does that leave the customers? People bought from what was assumed a reputable merchant, and now are hanging in legal limbo. The ones that probably have the most to worry about are people who bought one of their 10 pack or whatever, and sold part or all with no record (since it's just a chunk of plastic you could fedex to anyone, no face to face or adjoining state requirements). *knock knock* ATF... Sir, we need you to turn over all 20 EP lowers we show you bought. Oh, you sold half of them to a random person at a flea market? Come with us please...
In a 2A friendly country, EP would just have to submit their design proving that it was in fact a separate color core with the receiver formed around it and not a molded receiver with epoxy added later. Unfortunately, I doubt it's going to go anywhere near that smoothly, considering how the ATF has handled it so far.
I'm still having a hard time believing they were able to illegally operate this long and publicly without being investigated and shut down well before now, assuming they were actually doing something wrong.
Customers get NOTHING and the items are seized and destroyed.
A guy in the Shotgun News was selling "Pre 81" DIAS for 20 plus years. ATF busted him a few years ago because they caught him making them in his home. ATF got all of the records and went looking for them. I know a few people who got visits.
Say you live in a "free" state that allows face to face sales. IF the AFT is correct and it was 80.001% and EP was bad to sell them, would a 2nd purchaser be in "hot water"? I mean, it's LEGAL to sell a fire arm to an unrestricted purchaser. Or would the ATF go after all of them for all time?
....and yet 1900 firearms including 80% lowers are still missing in Mexico supplied by the ATF.
If the ATF presses someone about WHO they sold lowers to, do you honestly think they will not squeal if threatened with charges? If they have a phone #, email, P.M. or some type of communication trail from the transaction (2nd purchaser) they will probably give to ATF. Unless you bought them from some guy in a parking lot or gun show with cash, there may be a trail.
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If the ATF presses someone about WHO they sold lowers to, do you honestly think they will not squeal if threatened with charges? If they have a phone #, email, P.M. or some type of communication trail from the transaction (2nd purchaser) they will probably give to ATF. Unless you bought them from some guy in a parking lot or gun show with cash, there may be a trail.
But what "wrong" was committed by the subsequent sale? Oh... wait... I was being silly expecting logic and reason to be involved in the discussion.
Here's an update letter from EP Armory
http://blog.predatorbdu.com/2014/03/ep-armory-responds-to-atf-raid.html
But what "wrong" was committed by the subsequent sale? Oh... wait... I was being silly expecting logic and reason to be involved in the discussion.
Here's an update letter from EP Armory
http://blog.predatorbdu.com/2014/03/ep-armory-responds-to-atf-raid.html
Im not condoning anything ATF is doing, Im telling people who don't seem to know how it works. Just because Im bringing a message does not mean I agree with it.
The lower is legal.
The ATF wants the client names.
This has me wondering if they have a database of gunowners, which they are prohibited from having by law?!?!?!
I would be surprised if there isn't monitoring of online gun sales, recording of names during background checks, etc going on by the ATF or other government agencies right now.
VERY surprised. And I don't even own a tinfoil hat.
The only thing slowing them down from going for confiscation is the time it's taking for the ongoing campaign to convince enough of the public that "guns are evil" that they can get away with it without as much of a fuss.
I read today that the DOJ and ATF are now claiming 80% receivers are firearms in the ARES Armor case.
This is about to get ugly.
I wouldn't be surprised if they go after them for ITAR violations if they are not registered, or go after them for FET Taxes.
FWIW, Im NOT saying I agree with BATFE but anyone who keeps up on current events and has 2 functioning brain cells could have seen this from a mile away.
Factoring in that everything posted since the raid is passing through lawyer hands (no offense to the legal eagles on the board), you have to read into things a little more, and concentrate on what isn't being said. This line concerns me:
Therefore we did not give access to any such documents/records/information.
That could mean that they did not willingly provide a list, but since the ATF have their computers, they could still have it without EP "giving access" in a voluntary way. It's possible that if they acknowledge the customer list is on the computer, it could force them to decrypt or open it for the ATF, and make it admissable in court. If that's the case, you can pretty much be sure that big bro has it no matter if it was encrypted or not.
I would be surprised if there isn't monitoring of online gun sales, recording of names during background checks, etc going on by the ATF or other government agencies right now.
VERY surprised. And I don't even own a tinfoil hat.
The only thing slowing them down from going for confiscation is the time it's taking for the ongoing campaign to convince enough of the public that "guns are evil" that they can get away with it without as much of a fuss.
So it appears the restraining order is about as effective when a person is being stalked and isn't allowed to carry a firearm for self defense,worthless piece of paper to those that ignore the law,seems like we have heard this before.