ATF raid for client list

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  • 1ceman

    Active Member
    Dec 26, 2013
    592
    This is so wrong in so many ways.

    Cash is king but that can even be captured on video.
     

    TheBert

    The Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 10, 2013
    7,688
    Gaithersburg, Maryland
    So serious question: between this, CT, all the executive orders; is this administration actively TRYING to incite a revolt?

    I think they are doing everything they can to force the citizenry to fire the first shot.


    In a word yes. If there is a wide scale revolt against the government then the government will use the revolt to its benefit to try and remake the country based upon the needs to protect the state at the expense of the individual's rights and liberties. Forcing the reconstitution of the country serves the liberals desires to change the governing from what the government can't do to individuals to what they want the government to do to you.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,174
    Outside the Gates
    Could an individual purchaser go after ep in a civil suit for damages if ATF came knocking for the 80%?


    This is exactly why they are playing it the way they are ... "playing victim" to get sympathy to reduce the number of people who eventually join the class action suit against them.


    These guys are running an effective propaganda program and eventually ruining a lot of business in the legitimate 80% lower market

    People will only remember that lowers were confiscated and the rumor will start that finishing an AR from a stripped lower is illegal in all of the US.
     

    jpo183

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 20, 2013
    4,116
    in Maryland
    This is exactly why they are playing it the way they are ... "playing victim" to get sympathy to reduce the number of people who eventually join the class action suit against them.


    These guys are running an effective propaganda program and eventually ruining a lot of business in the legitimate 80% lower market

    As someone who purchased one (if you look hard enough you would find it anyway) this concerns me. The one I purchased is defective and does not work. The question I have on this is how far ATF will want to pursue this. As someone who tried completing this 80% (prior to Oct 1) I can tell you it is not as simple as it seems. I know people say they have used a dremel, good luck with that, it can be done but by no means is it easy nor guaranteed to work.

    Even if a class action lawsuit were to entail it would have to hit the owner civilly as well, since the company isn't worth much.

    To add on polymer 80 uses essentially the same method (two different types/colors) of polymers. They just included a jig. I searched both websites and neither has a letter (and it sounds like it doesn't matter anyway)
     

    cap6888

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 2, 2011
    2,556
    Howard County
    Worst case scenario is that they now declare these "firearms". Although ignorance of the law is no excuse, one might think that the intent of buying what is advertised as a legal product would make things easier in court. The "five step process" that is required to finish an 80% lower is still required of these. If the ATF knocked on everyones door who bought one, they may just be happy enough if the lower was turned over without question.

    It seems that the crux of the issue is how EP manufactured them. It would seem that since they were molded around the polymer pocket, the argument that it was never a true firearm should be valid.

    I am sure the whole 2A community is watching this with baited breath.
     

    wolfwood

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 24, 2011
    1,361
    There is still a ongoing lawsuit and more attorneys have been retained. This is not even close to being over.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,174
    Outside the Gates
    If the ATF knocked on everyones door who bought one, they may just be happy enough if the lower was turned over without question.

    That was the case with the Romanian PSL rifles that ATF declared to be convertible to full auto.

    I am sure the whole 2A community is watching this with baited breath.

    No, I think bated breath is an understatement, I think Ares has the community worked up into a false frenzy
     

    River Mud

    Active Member
    Mar 19, 2013
    102
    The wording of the restraining order did not ask ATF not to do a criminal enforcement raid; the order specifically allowed a criminal enforcement raid. Ares was blowing BS PR smoke. Apparently the court order only applied to civil action by ATF and Ares knew it.

    ATF was well within the court order and the whole thing is playing out like a ballet choreographed BY BOTH SIDES.

    Yes. I'm following it closely. So far (connected or not....who knows?):

    1. ATF busts illegal AR sales ring run by illegal immigrants in CA. 80% lowers are in the mix, not documented whether they are EP80s, polymer, metal, etc..????..

    2. BATFE reviews what they believe to be the EP80 mfg process and (I think mistakenly) judge the EP80 lower to be "a firearm."

    3. ATF raids EP80, seizes 80%s, molding machines, and computers, to halt their production of the EP80 product. Mission accomplished. ATF seems less interested in their business practices and customer files (so far).

    4. ATF raids ARES (EP80 dealer, among other things) and specifically goes after THEIR customer data.

    What I draw from the above (no facts to support) is that the Moron Brothers who were building unserialized AR's and selling them on the street (assumedly to gangs) were purchasing their 80% lowers from ARES (ATF wishes to document this to easily prosecute ARES), and at least some of those lowers were EP80s. ATF bureaucrats are incredulous with the 80% lower situation and have decided to push back against polymer because I imagine the material is far easier to mill than metals. If they can get a legal finding that the EP80 "is a weapon," then they have ARES for "sales of unserialized weapons to ineligible individuals."

    As the poster above mentioned, I think it's likely that a deal has been discussed (terms not agreed to......yet) where ARES stays open, pays a major fine for selling EP80s, and stays in business selling everything but EP80s. Again, I'm reminded of the Cavalry Arms debacle where they protested their innocence for 2 years, soliciting legal funds, etc., and trying to make their whole customer base afraid that the "Feds are coming," when in reality, the owner of the company was selling large numbers of guns to someone illegally on the side, which was what ATF was chasing him down for in the first place - not partially completed lowers. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong.

    Just my guess.
     

    wolfwood

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 24, 2011
    1,361
    The wording of the restraining order did not ask ATF not to do a criminal enforcement raid; the order specifically allowed a criminal enforcement raid. Ares was blowing BS PR smoke. Apparently the court order only applied to civil action by ATF and Ares knew it.

    ATF was well within the court order and the whole thing is playing out like a ballet choreographed BY BOTH SIDES.

    That is false. The Feds applied for a ex parte motion that modified it wherein they made a material misstatement of face (they lied) to get it granted. As it was ex parte Ares was unable to respond to it.
     

    River Mud

    Active Member
    Mar 19, 2013
    102
    A civil restraining order doesn't mean squat against a criminal search warrant that a judge deems to be legal.

    I think we can all agree that BATFE at this point is lying about their understanding of the EP80 manufacturing process. They've been corrected and they continue to ignore it.

    Obviously their Goal #1 is to push the lie as fast, as hard as they can and see how strongly it reverberates, and what traction they can get politically; Goal #2 will be to settle down, provide a "real" analysis of whether the EP80 is legal, and pursue the case(s) at hand, assuming (big assumption) that they didn't Deep-6 their own case due to their actions in #1 above.
     

    wolfwood

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 24, 2011
    1,361
    A civil restraining order doesn't mean squat against a criminal search warrant that a judge deems to be legal.

    I think we can all agree that BATFE at this point is lying about their understanding of the EP80 manufacturing process. They've been corrected and they continue to ignore it.

    Obviously their Goal #1 is to push the lie as fast, as hard as they can and see how strongly it reverberates, and what traction they can get politically; Goal #2 will be to settle down, provide a "real" analysis of whether the EP80 is legal, and pursue the case(s) at hand, assuming (big assumption) that they didn't Deep-6 their own case due to their actions in #1 above.

    If the tro had no effect why did they file a ex parte motion wherein they lied about not having been given service in order to have the judge rule on the issue without giving me a chance to file a response. Then waited to they received a clarification on the order before acting. Let's see what they file on Monday and what happens on Thursday before jumping the gun here.
     

    Ab_Normal

    Ab_member
    Feb 2, 2010
    8,613
    Carroll County
    If the tro had no effect why did they file a ex parte motion wherein they lied about not having been given service in order to have the judge rule on the issue without giving me a chance to file a response. Then waited to they received a clarification on the order before acting. Let's see what they file on Monday and what happens on Thursday before jumping the gun here.

    Are you personally involved with this situation?
     

    River Mud

    Active Member
    Mar 19, 2013
    102
    If the tro had no effect why did they file a ex parte motion wherein they lied about not having been given service in order to have the judge rule on the issue without giving me a chance to file a response. Then waited to they received a clarification on the order before acting. Let's see what they file on Monday and what happens on Thursday before jumping the gun here.

    Fair enough. Good luck. I'll be the first to admit my error and incorrect assumptions if that's how the tea leaves start shaking out. It'd be nice if I'm wrong, in a lot of ways.

    Maryland gun owners won't have another (legal) crack at 80% lowers (EP's or any others) for the forseeable future so I know a lot of people on this forum would love to see this handled successfully.
     

    chsnprodigy

    Active Member
    Dec 24, 2012
    128
    Coming from a machinist that has built a lower reciever from scratch, and witnessed a 80% being completed, completing a polymer 80% is not as easy as everyone (politicians) thinks it is. It can be done with a dremel, but it will take a lot of time and patience....and time. And even when machining mistakes are made, end mills grab the part and pull, you feed the wrong direction adn now your 80% is scrap. My question is this, why did the ATF target Ares Armory? And what about all the other 80% polymers on the market...whats the differnece between Ares and Poly80.com, or EP80, or Polymer80.com or Jamesmadisontactical.com. A competent machnist can complete any of these without a jig or fixture....the only difference is these are polymer and not ali. Heck, there is someone on youtube that completed an ali 80% lower with a dremel.

    http://poly80.com/
    http://www.eparmory.com/EP80-Receiver-Black-p/ep80black.htm
    http://polymer80.com/
    http://www.jamesmadisontactical.com/
     

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