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Old March 15th, 2014, 08:37 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by glennc75 View Post
Saw that video posted by EP Armory on FB. I guess they didn't follow the restraining order.
Yeah, so much for following the law/rules - that is only for chumps.


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Old March 15th, 2014, 09:20 PM   #62
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EP didnt send one of these lowers to the ATF to get a determination letter.

I read this on another forum.

That was dumb on thier part.
If true, where does that leave the customers? People bought from what was assumed a reputable merchant, and now are hanging in legal limbo. The ones that probably have the most to worry about are people who bought one of their 10 pack or whatever, and sold part or all with no record (since it's just a chunk of plastic you could fedex to anyone, no face to face or adjoining state requirements). *knock knock* ATF... Sir, we need you to turn over all 20 EP lowers we show you bought. Oh, you sold half of them to a random person at a flea market? Come with us please...

In a 2A friendly country, EP would just have to submit their design proving that it was in fact a separate color core with the receiver formed around it and not a molded receiver with epoxy added later. Unfortunately, I doubt it's going to go anywhere near that smoothly, considering how the ATF has handled it so far.

I'm still having a hard time believing they were able to illegally operate this long and publicly without being investigated and shut down well before now, assuming they were actually doing something wrong.
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Old March 15th, 2014, 09:37 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by glennc75 View Post
If true, where does that leave the customers? People bought from what was assumed a reputable merchant, and now are hanging in legal limbo. The ones that probably have the most to worry about are people who bought one of their 10 pack or whatever, and sold part or all with no record (since it's just a chunk of plastic you could fedex to anyone, no face to face or adjoining state requirements). *knock knock* ATF... Sir, we need you to turn over all 20 EP lowers we show you bought. Oh, you sold half of them to a random person at a flea market? Come with us please...

In a 2A friendly country, EP would just have to submit their design proving that it was in fact a separate color core with the receiver formed around it and not a molded receiver with epoxy added later. Unfortunately, I doubt it's going to go anywhere near that smoothly, considering how the ATF has handled it so far.

I'm still having a hard time believing they were able to illegally operate this long and publicly without being investigated and shut down well before now, assuming they were actually doing something wrong.
Customers get NOTHING and the items are seized and destroyed.

A guy in the Shotgun News was selling "Pre 81" DIAS for 20 plus years. ATF busted him a few years ago because they caught him making them in his home. ATF got all of the records and went looking for them. I know a few people who got visits.


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Old March 15th, 2014, 09:46 PM   #64
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Say you live in a "free" state that allows face to face sales. IF the AFT is correct and it was 80.001% and EP was bad to sell them, would a 2nd purchaser be in "hot water"? I mean, it's LEGAL to sell a fire arm to an unrestricted purchaser. Or would the ATF go after all of them for all time?


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Old March 15th, 2014, 09:58 PM   #65
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Customers get NOTHING and the items are seized and destroyed.

A guy in the Shotgun News was selling "Pre 81" DIAS for 20 plus years. ATF busted him a few years ago because they caught him making them in his home. ATF got all of the records and went looking for them. I know a few people who got visits.
....and yet 1900 firearms including 80% lowers are still missing in Mexico supplied by the ATF.


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Old March 15th, 2014, 10:05 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by john_bud View Post
Say you live in a "free" state that allows face to face sales. IF the AFT is correct and it was 80.001% and EP was bad to sell them, would a 2nd purchaser be in "hot water"? I mean, it's LEGAL to sell a fire arm to an unrestricted purchaser. Or would the ATF go after all of them for all time?
If the ATF presses someone about WHO they sold lowers to, do you honestly think they will not squeal if threatened with charges? If they have a phone #, email, P.M. or some type of communication trail from the transaction (2nd purchaser) they will probably give to ATF. Unless you bought them from some guy in a parking lot or gun show with cash, there may be a trail.

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....and yet 1900 firearms including 80% lowers are still missing in Mexico supplied by the ATF.
My posts are not in agreement with ATF, just posting how it works.


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Old March 15th, 2014, 10:11 PM   #67
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If the ATF presses someone about WHO they sold lowers to, do you honestly think they will not squeal if threatened with charges? If they have a phone #, email, P.M. or some type of communication trail from the transaction (2nd purchaser) they will probably give to ATF. Unless you bought them from some guy in a parking lot or gun show with cash, there may be a trail.


.
But what "wrong" was committed by the subsequent sale? Oh... wait... I was being silly expecting logic and reason to be involved in the discussion.


Here's an update letter from EP Armory

http://blog.predatorbdu.com/2014/03/...-atf-raid.html


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Old March 15th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #68
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If the ATF presses someone about WHO they sold lowers to, do you honestly think they will not squeal if threatened with charges? If they have a phone #, email, P.M. or some type of communication trail from the transaction (2nd purchaser) they will probably give to ATF. Unless you bought them from some guy in a parking lot or gun show with cash, there may be a trail.
That last part is what I was thinking of. I've been to plenty of shows where you pick up a couple of mags, maybe a new grip or hand guard, most of the time for cash and half the time without receipt (this is at a table, not even counting Joe Bob just walking around selling out of a backpack). These 80% lowers fall in about that same price range and most likely were treated the same way. The merchants are either loose enough with their return policy to replace a defective unit on your word you bought from them, or the lower is so cheap that if you goober one, it's disposable. If that is true, there's probably a decent number of these with no trail to chase. I really hope that's the case, just to make life a little harder for the ATF goons!
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Old March 15th, 2014, 10:22 PM   #69
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But what "wrong" was committed by the subsequent sale? Oh... wait... I was being silly expecting logic and reason to be involved in the discussion.


Here's an update letter from EP Armory

http://blog.predatorbdu.com/2014/03/...-atf-raid.html
Im not condoning anything ATF is doing, Im telling people who don't seem to know how it works. Just because Im bringing a message does not mean I agree with it.


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Old March 15th, 2014, 10:31 PM   #70
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But what "wrong" was committed by the subsequent sale? Oh... wait... I was being silly expecting logic and reason to be involved in the discussion.


Here's an update letter from EP Armory

http://blog.predatorbdu.com/2014/03/...-atf-raid.html
Factoring in that everything posted since the raid is passing through lawyer hands (no offense to the legal eagles on the board), you have to read into things a little more, and concentrate on what isn't being said. This line concerns me:

Therefore we did not give access to any such documents/records/information.

That could mean that they did not willingly provide a list, but since the ATF have their computers, they could still have it without EP "giving access" in a voluntary way. It's possible that if they acknowledge the customer list is on the computer, it could force them to decrypt or open it for the ATF, and make it admissable in court. If that's the case, you can pretty much be sure that big bro has it no matter if it was encrypted or not.
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Old March 15th, 2014, 10:36 PM   #71
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Im not condoning anything ATF is doing, Im telling people who don't seem to know how it works. Just because Im bringing a message does not mean I agree with it.
I think he was talking about logic and reason on the ATF side. I'm pretty sure we have a (sort of) unified front here.
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Old March 15th, 2014, 10:41 PM   #72
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The lower is legal.

The ATF wants the client names.

This has me wondering if they have a database of gunowners, which they are prohibited from having by law?!?!?!
I would be surprised if there isn't monitoring of online gun sales, recording of names during background checks, etc going on by the ATF or other government agencies right now.

VERY surprised. And I don't even own a tinfoil hat.

The only thing slowing them down from going for confiscation is the time it's taking for the ongoing campaign to convince enough of the public that "guns are evil" that they can get away with it without as much of a fuss.


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Old March 15th, 2014, 10:53 PM   #73
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I would be surprised if there isn't monitoring of online gun sales, recording of names during background checks, etc going on by the ATF or other government agencies right now.

VERY surprised. And I don't even own a tinfoil hat.

The only thing slowing them down from going for confiscation is the time it's taking for the ongoing campaign to convince enough of the public that "guns are evil" that they can get away with it without as much of a fuss.
No tinfoil hat required! We are talking about an administration that, when found to be violating laws, interprets that to mean that it must be time to fix the laws.

Of course most of the left probably thinks we're already sporting some assault tinfoil hats, capable of allowing more than 10 free and independant thoughts in a row without napping... scary stuff to them.
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Old March 15th, 2014, 10:55 PM   #74
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LOL @ assault tinfoil hats!
With those disposable high capacity clips, too!

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Old March 16th, 2014, 04:00 AM   #75
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So it appears the restraining order is about as effective when a person is being stalked and isn't allowed to carry a firearm for self defense,worthless piece of paper to those that ignore the law,seems like we have heard this before.
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Old March 16th, 2014, 07:26 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by clandestine View Post
I read today that the DOJ and ATF are now claiming 80% receivers are firearms in the ARES Armor case.

This is about to get ugly.

I wouldn't be surprised if they go after them for ITAR violations if they are not registered, or go after them for FET Taxes.



FWIW, Im NOT saying I agree with BATFE but anyone who keeps up on current events and has 2 functioning brain cells could have seen this from a mile away.
I'm not sure they could go for ITAR unless an export happened. For those that don't know "export" in ITAR does not mean transferring it out of country, it means transferring to a foreign national who does not have a valid a permanent resident card. If course they could claim they're looking for an ITAR violation in the records but that should be State not ATF.


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Old March 16th, 2014, 07:37 AM   #77
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Factoring in that everything posted since the raid is passing through lawyer hands (no offense to the legal eagles on the board), you have to read into things a little more, and concentrate on what isn't being said. This line concerns me:

Therefore we did not give access to any such documents/records/information.

That could mean that they did not willingly provide a list, but since the ATF have their computers, they could still have it without EP "giving access" in a voluntary way. It's possible that if they acknowledge the customer list is on the computer, it could force them to decrypt or open it for the ATF, and make it admissable in court. If that's the case, you can pretty much be sure that big bro has it no matter if it was encrypted or not.
They could also argue that the evidence was obtained illegally and should not be admissable in court. That should also go for anybody they went after with the evidence that was obtained illegally.

All this assuming the courts will act within their constitutionally defined parameters of which I have my doubts.


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Old March 16th, 2014, 07:47 AM   #78
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I would be surprised if there isn't monitoring of online gun sales, recording of names during background checks, etc going on by the ATF or other government agencies right now.

VERY surprised. And I don't even own a tinfoil hat.

The only thing slowing them down from going for confiscation is the time it's taking for the ongoing campaign to convince enough of the public that "guns are evil" that they can get away with it without as much of a fuss.
Your last sentence made me think. What if the BATF is using this as a litmus test to a) gauge public response and b) bring uneducated politicians on Capitol Hill up to speed on what 80% lowers are (i.e., bring it into the national spotlight).

What better place to conduct a raid like this than in a state that necessitated the birth of an invention like the "bullet button." Do you think they'd have the nads to try and pull off a stunt like this in TX or TN?

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Old March 16th, 2014, 09:16 AM   #79
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Old March 16th, 2014, 10:10 AM   #80
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Ares BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe72 View Post
So it appears the restraining order is about as effective when a person is being stalked and isn't allowed to carry a firearm for self defense,worthless piece of paper to those that ignore the law,seems like we have heard this before.
The wording of the restraining order did not ask ATF not to do a criminal enforcement raid; the order specifically allowed a criminal enforcement raid. Ares was blowing BS PR smoke. Apparently the court order only applied to civil action by ATF and Ares knew it.

ATF was well within the court order and the whole thing is playing out like a ballet choreographed BY BOTH SIDES.


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