Nagant revolver Lee die set question

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  • novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    Sorry for not using the search feature, but I remember this may have come up a long time ago and it is too much to wade through to get a quick answer (I am doing an order with Midway right now and I wonder if I should get the die set)

    I know the Lee die set is for forming 32-20 brass for use in the Nagant, but how well does it fair with spent actual Nagant brass?
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    Novus,
    The Lee die does a good job on 32-20 brass (especially Starline), but its depth is way too short to size Hotshot Nagant cases.

    EDIT:
    I just made a fibber out of myself!! My bad. :banghead:

    I just ran an empty Hotshot cast through the sizing die and it seems to work!! Oh my.

    However there is one other issue. You'll need a shell holder. Nagant cases won't fit the 32-20 SH that comes with the Lee set. RCBS makes one. I think they're about $22 or so @ Midway. I bought one so I could prime Hotshot cases on the press.
     

    helg

    Active Member
    Dec 26, 2008
    659
    Check the link.

    9. Reloading "correct" 7.62x38R (7.62 Nagant) ammunition. Option #2 . . . Gas Seal Ammunition!

    Author says that 30 carbine dies work for him with original 7.62x38R brass. He believes that 32-20 reforming dies wont work in that way.

    I never tried 32-20 reforming dies. 30 carbine dies do work with the 7.62 Nagant brass.

    Neither shellholder from Lee 11-set (including the one that gets 32-20) fits Nagant brass. The closest one is Lee #19 (9mm/40sw), which needs only slight dremel job to hold the brass.

    Left to to right, shells that are mentioned in the above article. 223, 7.62 Nagant, 30 carbine, 32-20, 32 HR Magnum, 32 SW long.
     

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    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    $22? Holy moly! Might be worth it in the long run though.

    Thanks a bunch for the info. Will the Lee die set do the crimp?

    The Lee seating die will put a useful crimp on a round built on a reformed 32-20 case. But the die IS far too short and different to expect it to deliver a "Nagant-like, cylinder-sealing" crimp on a Hotshot case. Of that I'm certain - no need for me to check again and correct myself on that point...:o

    I've read where many folks have used .30 carbine seating dies to get something close to a sealing crimp, but I haven't tried that...yet...:innocent0
    I also wonder if a sheet metal shim in the 32-20 shell holder might make the Nagant case fit?

    Maybe, but it'd likely be a PITA to build a shim that'd consistently hold the case on center in the S/H. Here's the RCBS S/H I know will fit (I have one):
    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=738210

    The tiny rim on a Nagant case is an "oddball" size (what else is new about the "Little Beast"?). It's not only a slightly smaller diameter than a 32-20 rim, but it's thinner. That's why I mentioned using Starline 32-20 cases w/ the Lee die. Other brands of reformed 32-20 cases can be too thick to allow the cylinder to freely rotate. That means sanding some material off the bottom of the cases may be necessary.

    Then there's the reloading challange of priming Hotshot cases. If you use a Lee hand priming tool (I've used one for 20 years), there's no S/H that'll work. That leaves priming cases on a press through a press S/H. So, we're back to full circle. To reload Hotshot cases, one probably needs an RCBS S/H. It works well with a ram prime type press setup.

    With all that said, here's some stuff I've kept in my research that may rejuvinate everyone's interest and energy on figuring out how to load for the "Little Beast". One pic compares a .32 special with a reformed reload and a factory Hotshot cartridge. The other pic is of some loads that shot well using .32 DEWC's in reformed Starline 32-20 cases. And an article I found that sums up how much of a challange reloading can be for a Nagant.

    It's a terrific pistol to shoot. I'd really like it a bunch! But not at 50 cents plus per round. :sad20:
     

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    helg

    Active Member
    Dec 26, 2008
    659
    Here is my custom setup to reload gas sealed rounds for 1895 Nagant. Sorry for a big picture.

    Front to back:

    • 30 carbine Lee seating die that was modified to push bullets deep into shell. Note that seating stem stands upside down, so its flat end is pushing the bullet. I tapered the flat end. Right to the stem is my extender - to push bullet deeper. Other 30 carbine dies were not modified.
    • Cast bullets - from Lee 311-093-1R mold, same as for Tokarev pistol.
    • Modified Lee #19 shellholders: regular and priming one. I dremeled only .003" on the thin ogive of the shellholders to fit 7.62x38 shells.
    • Gas sealed rounds. See that the crimp is smaller than on factory gas sealed rounds. There were two kinds of ammo for Nagant: one with strong "military" crimp, and another one with light "competition" one. I put light crimp to extend brass life.
    Note that #19 shellholders still can be used for the original calibers, as well as bullet seating stem, when inserted into the die by the other end.
     

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    helg

    Active Member
    Dec 26, 2008
    659
    3.07 grains of Bullseye (my Lee 0.34cc disk measures that) with the above components calculate to 750fps and 9,150PSI, which is 80% of max pressure. Chrony shows speeds in between of 750 and 770. I believe this is due to bullet resistance to open a crimp, and my bullet alloy that is slighly harder for the low pressure. I use water quenched WW bullets, same as for Tokarev pistol with BHN in 18-20 range. The bullets are perfect for Tokarev, which works on 35K PSI, but may be not that good for the low-pressure revolver. No leading though.

    There is a visible muzzle flash. Only 85% of the low-pressure Bullseye charge burns when bullet is in a barrel. I am going to try N310 powder, which is faster, and should burn completely without the flash.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    Good posts, helg!

    I cast WW bullets with the same Lee mold you mention and they work very well in my Tokarev and CZ-52 loads. For my Nagant loads, using shorter Starline 32-20 reformed cases, I've sized the cast bullets down to .309. They work OK in the Nagant...but of course with no gas seal.

    I've attempted to build a usable "gas seal" round with a Hotshot case sized with a Lee 32-20 reform die. The problem I ran into is belling the case mouth to easily accept the bullet. When the case mouth is belled enough then the case wall doesn't want to hold the bullet in place once it's seated vs. the slug falling into the case.

    Granted, I haven't been using 30 carbine dies, but I can get a set.

    More details on your process would be appreciated!

    :D
     

    helg

    Active Member
    Dec 26, 2008
    659
    I use Fiocci brass (GFL headstamp). After pushing it completely into 30 carbine sizer it mikes .325" on top and .353" at the bottom. The factory Fiocci round measures .328" and .353" - so, the top is slightly undersized to hold a bullet. Brass thickness on top is .011". This gives inner brass diameter on top after sizing as .303".

    I size bullets to .311". Assuming that brass is not thinning to the bottom of the shell, inner diameter at 1/4 from the top, where the bullet ends, is still .310" (simple math from the above numbers). This should still touch the .311" bullet. The bullets are completely covered by Lee Alox. This may also add some stickiness. Flaring opens a shell just a few hundreds from the top, and should not affect bullet holding that much, provided that the bullet touches the shell all the way through.

    The bore slugs to .312" - do not know what is the standard there. This is Soviet Nagant with "1938" inside a star mark. My .311" bullet even looks undersized for the bore.

    When started, I put the above pictured "seating extender" on a bullet side of the die. It did not seat consistently. Then I tapered the seating stem and put the extender to the opposite side, as pictured. This give better result.
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
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    If the bore is .312 and you can only use .309 bullets in the gas seal bullets, then what about a hollow based bullet so that the base expands to the rifling?
    Does anyone know if the Russians used hollow based bullets like this in their milsurp?
     

    helg

    Active Member
    Dec 26, 2008
    659
    I am not completely following the explanation why the small bullet should be used for gas sealed rounds, which is described in the link that was posted twice in the thread. After firing my .311" bullet case mouth opens to .334". .011" brass thickness gives inner diameter of the mouth after firing as .313". I do not see a problem to load even .312" bullet, and if there will be no overpressure signs, even .313", which is right for cast slug through .312" bore.
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
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    I may be mistaken, but I think someone said a while back that if they used a .312 bullet seated in a gas seal case it would not fit in the cylinder, but my memory may be off by a lot.
    Also, the one link (that I did not realize was repeated) claims the diameter is constricted, but you make me doubt the link.
     

    alecbh

    Member
    Sep 18, 2010
    1
    Hey everyone, I'm new here, and I don't even live in Maryland. :D Anyways, I've got a Nagant M1895 on the way, and I'm intending to get into reloading soon, as my two centerfires are 8mm Mauser, and 7.62 Nagant, and if ammo is scarce for .38spl, then my ammo is about as common as hen's teeth.

    Anyways, I've been googling around and it seems like y'all have one of the better solutions to loading ammo that creates the gas seal. Have y'all made any more progress on perfecting the process? And, what dies should I get, if I plan to reload for it? I am NOT spending $160 on RCBS dies, but the Lee set just seems to be a Frankenstein-type put together. Would I be better off buying the best individual dies for each step?
     

    helg

    Active Member
    Dec 26, 2008
    659
    I have tried to load the Nagant with unsized pure lead bullets from the same mold that is shown at the above picture. After slugging the bore it was obvious that the unsized bullet should fit better into the bore. Pure lead bullet should be more appropriate for low pressure of the round.

    I did not shoot sufficient number of rounds to judge on the leading with hard or soft bullet. Accuracy should become better, though I shoot off hand, and the revolver was more accurate than me with either bullet.
     

    mashaffer

    Member
    Jan 5, 2013
    1
    Newbie resurrecting an old thread...

    If you can get the factory cases properly annealed and sized, it seems like loading a soft lead bullet, with proper black powder lube, over a full case (minus the bullet length of course) of fffg ought to preclude the bullet pushing back into the case. The black powder pressure curve should also pretty well guarantee proper gas sealing I think as well. Given the case capacity I suspect that velocities would be decent.

    Anyone ever try this? Anyone game to test the theory and report back? I would if I owned one.

    mike
     

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