Mr. Shell, et al, a question about Barrel break in

Hello everyone, I am in a bit of a quandary and looking for some assistance.

I have a Sako TRG 22 that I recently obtained (with hopes to make it to the modified F-Class shoots sometime soon) and I have come across so many different opinions that I am a bit unsure about breaking in the barrel.

I have found recommendations that run from (LWRC and others) no break in is necessary, to (GAP) 1 - 5 round strings, to others who recommend 20 - 50 rounds. I have never done a break in process to any weapon that I have ever owned and never had a problem, but given how long it took me to obtain this rifle I don't wish to mess anything up.

I'm looking for anyone with experience (Mr. Shell) with barrel break in, good or bad. I can't seem to find anything directly from Sako about it and the manual doesn't address it.

Thanks.

With custom barrels and the average factory barrel, I don't bother. I used to do it, in a superstitious, awestruck sort of way, but I have sincerely tried to stop doing things that that cannot be proven to help and have even recently given up on casting the bones.

Offhand, riddle me this: If a good riflesmith like George at GAP can barrel rifles with almost anything but a Hart or ER Shaw, how can they print "standard break-in procedures for GAP rifles" when even the main barrel makers cannot concur? Are we not by necessity contradicting someone at some point?

Reeks of voodoo, methinks...

Note that when we discuss "break-in" in this context, we're actually attempting to condition the bore to provide minimum copper fouling, which is independent of absolute accuracy. If a barrel is not accurate from the first shot, break-in will not likely help. I do believe the benefit of break-in (reduced fouling) will be inversely proportional to barrel quality, to a point.

The premise is that we will always have minute burrs in the bore and these burrs are worn off by the bullet, which improves bore finish, which reduces the tendency to foul.

To follow the mantra, we would fire one shot, which both burnishes the bore and leaves traces of jacket material in the low/rough spots, then clean to bare barrel material. By cleaning to bare metal before firing shot #2, we allow the next bullet to also burnish the bare steel. Were we to simply continue shooting without cleaning, we would just rub more fouling over the fouling that's there without improving the bore finish. So we continue to repeat this "shoot one/clean/shoot one/clean" cycle, hoping to see fouling suddenly drop off, until the barrel finally does show a reduced tendency to foul (or we get sick of it).

That's the THEORY, ideally speaking, in a perfect world and all..

In practice, custom barrels of good quality do not need break-in and will typically shoot without excessively fouling from the very beginning. They are finished to very high standards and most are lapped, which is a far more effective way of removing microscopic burrs than trying to rub them off with bullets. Could the tendency to foul be reduced with fewer rounds with "proper" break-in? I'd give you a soft "maybe", but even then please note that I did not say "faster", only "fewer rounds", and by the time I shoot for an hour or so, by any method, "break-in" is actually over. Life is short, hand me another cartridge...

By contrast, factory barrels from most mass-production makers are so rough, they really don't benefit from break-in either. Many will have thousands of rounds and still collect a large amount of copper. This doesn't mean accuracy doesn't exist, and many factory tubes shoot very well, but also collect vast amounts of fouling. They may or may not respond to the tedium of a formal break-in process, and it's probably an even bet that it will shoot better with a hundred down it than if perfectly clean.

In the case of your TRG, I would compare that barrel quality to most customs, and I'd expect it to provide easy cleaning right off the bat. A friend has one that will put FGMM 175s into 3/8 minute.

I would suggest letting your level of fouling tell you how to treat the barrel. Start with a few modest range sessions and see how it cleans up. Chances are it will foul pretty good first time out, then be much better, whether your first times out are one shot, twenty or a hundred.

It's hard to go too many rounds between cleanings with a .308. I've shot back-to-back F-Class matches (130-140 rounds) with NO loss of accuracy. I don't like to leave them fouled, but as long as accuracy stays good during any given session, I wouldn't be too intense about it.

You're right though, there ARE a lot of varying views on this, even among barrel makers. A lot of rhetoric is all about benchrest, with it's peculiar requirements and tolerances, and the oddity of having barrels made to the highest possible standards, coupled with the willingness to toss a barrel after 500 rounds. We have to be careful to not transpose requirements of one standard of precision to another, and what works for benchrest guns may not apply to mass produced factory rifles or even upscale field guns like the TRG.

Just my .02 worth. I haven't seen proof that it does any measurable good, but I do break in barrels. I figure even if it doesn't really help, it can't hurt. With the price of a custom rifle, or high quality production rifle, I don't want to take a chance of not getting the most from my investment. I go with cleaning after each round for the first 5, then after every 5 rounds for the next 45. After 50 rounds this way I consider it good to go.

Thank you both for the information/opinions.

I will no longer be spending as much time as I was worrying about it, and I guess now I can toss the voodoo doll I've had stashed in my range bag.

Thanks again.

How far would you take a cleaning at the range between rounds? More of a boresnake w/ solvent or would you bring the brushes and patches out?

midcountygunshop said:

Just my .02 worth. I haven't seen proof that it does any measurable good, but I do break in barrels. I figure even if it doesn't really help, it can't hurt. With the price of a custom rifle, or high quality production rifle, I don't want to take a chance of not getting the most from my investment. I go with cleaning after each round for the first 5, then after every 5 rounds for the next 45. After 50 rounds this way I consider it good to go.

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This seems a reasonable approach. Just bear in mind that a lack of break-in does no damage at all and does not detract from accuracy.

Break-in is only SUSPECTED to help reduce copper (not carbon) fouling sooner, and that is more a popular belief than something we can actually prove.

In actuality, ALL rounds down the barrel count against barrel life, whether fired at targets or during break-in, and extensive break-in only adds premature wear.

If we do not have proper cleaning tools such as good quality rods and a real (not Midway or Sinclair) bore guide, we risk damage to the rifle more by cleaning than not cleaning.

goneshootin88 said:

How far would you take a cleaning at the range between rounds? More of a boresnake w/ solvent or would you bring the brushes and patches out?

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Cleaning for what purpose?

To prevent fouling build-up in a cartridge prone to carbon fouling, dry brushing every 5-10 shots can help. When I shoot the two day Allegheny Sniper Challenge, I dry brush my 6.5-284 Saturday night to cut some of the carbon and let me finish the 100-110 round match without loss of accuracy. Not much else actually accomplishes anything, and brushing at copper fouling with bronze brushes will obviously take forever to show any results, and those results will just be bronze in the bore instead of copper.

A bore snake is not as aggressive as a real rod/brush and does not clean as effectively. I also avoid solvent on a bore snake, since it will eventually show up end-to-end and it is so critical that the bore and especially the chamber be dry upon firing.

I do like a dry bore snake for rimfires, and believe that these is usually no need for brush or solvent if we start with a clean bore and keep up it. I have some rimfires that have never seen a rod. For target shooters who shoot a LOT of lead .22 bullets, a brush will be needed to keep the lead ring in the throat under control.

At first glance, a boresnake would seem great for pistols too, but I don't see where bore fouling will EVER accumulate to the point of being even noticed, let alone becoming detrimental enough to accuracy to make one stop shooting and run an emergency bore snake through their belly gun. In fact, except for lead bullet target guns, most handgun bores could be left completely alone with no effect, so why bother to drag a boresnake through there at all? A handgun requires such a frequent detail cleaning for carbon that letting solvent sit in the barrel for a few cycles won't slow down the process and we can actually get it clean.

For a more thorough cleaning at the range or elsewhere, IMHO, it's all or nothing. Once solvent is introduced to the bore, it should be completely cleaned and dried thoroughly before firing again.

When I used to believe in break-in, I'd carry my whole cleaning setup to the field and scrub the rifle thoroughly between break-in shots. I also carry a second rifle to give me something to do while the solvent works.

Because conventional copper solvents need at least 15 minutes in the bore to work, we really need to evaluate the effectiveness of this between-shot cleaning and wonder if we are really accomplishing what we imagine. If one cleans with Sweets, it will take 10-15 minutes per application to dissolve the surface of the fouling, with the number of applications depending on how thick the fouling is. This means that it can take an hour or more to fire a five shot group from a properly cleaned bore, and the groups we fire under these conditions tell us nothing.

I'll share a story if I could, I come from a Marine Corps background and in the Corps a very clean weapon is a must. You are taught from day one that you must have a weapon that will pass inspection at any time. I lived by this shoot it then clean it mantra for many many years.

Fast forward to my first precision rifle and learning from folks like E.Shell. I was told that the rifle will tell me when it needs to be cleaned and don't worry about the break in thing. I didn't quite know what they were talking about when they told me the rifle will tell me when it needs to be cleaned. Off I go to practice my precision shooting skills at the range. My gun is capable of shooting 1/2" 5 shot groups with factory ammo and about 1/4" 5 shot groups with hand loads, so imagine my surprise when I am at the range one day and I can't get it to shoot less than 1" groups and they are getting worse not better the more I shoot. I take the rifle home and decide to clean it thoroughly, take it back to the range and it still isn't shooting well at all, until about 15 rounds through it and then the groups tighten up like a frogs butt. It was amazing to watch this happen!

I have learned a few things from the very experienced gentlemen that I know like E.Shell over that past couple of years and the one main thing I have learned is to listen to what they say and throw away all the garbage I had learned for many years. I only clean my rifle when it tells me to now and if I clean it before a match it is only to take carbon fouling out to maintain accuracy and I have never had to clean it thoroughly since. I do clean it thoroughly about every 500 rounds or so but that is because I want to and not because I need to.

Long story short, learn your rifle and listen to what it is telling you. Listen to the folks like Ed who know what they speak and throw the rest in the garbage.

Is my situation any different because I'm using Brown Bear and Silver Bear ammo? It's not supposed to be corrosive but darn is it dirty. So far I've been cleaning my bore every time after going to the range (and damn does a lot of the black stuff come out each time). Is that excessive?

Since the Russian ammo is so dirty, and there's really no telling whether it's hygroscopic or if it might promote oxidation, I'd stick with cleaning it after each session.

You'll likely not be able to see rifle accuracy degradation as fouling accumulates because any differences are probably below the overall accuracy level of the ammo.

When I start a new "not custom preped" barrel I usually lap the bore with Flitz and a tight patched jag. Once everything feels smooth I clean with alchohol (some even makes it into the barrel) and moly coat the bore. ( several coats applied with a patched jag over several days) then I spraymoly a box of ammo and after firing these I clean thoroughly and am ready for serious sighting work. Generally I give the bore a recoat after each thorough cleaning and call it good

I also have some German milsurp .308 from ~1992. The dealer at the gun show who sold it to us said it was non-corrosive, at least. But I'm guessing it's still better to be safe than sorry and clean the rifle after every trip to the range.

goneshootin88 said:

How far would you take a cleaning at the range between rounds? More of a boresnake w/ solvent or would you bring the brushes and patches out?

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Not saying what I do is right, but I don't take the cleaning between rounds very far. I will clean it, but I don't attempt to get all the copper out. I am more worried about getting the powder residue out and leaving the copper, that should be filling in any imperfections, there. I use a nylon brush with a bit of powder solvent to make one stroke for each round fired, then patch clean and dry. Once again, not saying that's the way to do it, just what I have done.