For those of you who don't reload....

[Charybdis69]

Thanks for the post guys. I was just considering giving up on my plans to roll my own. I didn't think it would pay for itself after equipment and raw materials (bullets, primers, brass, powder). I've been collecting brass and looking around for reloading supplies (online and at the last Chantilly show). I've been eying the the Dillon RL550 on ebay looking for a good deal.

 

[trickg]

It will take longer to recover your startup expenses if you buy a Dillon 550, but man, those things can crank out good reloads in no time at all, so if you shoot a lot, that's one way to do it that would save time and allow you to reload a lot in a short amount of time.

Me - I went as inexpensive as I could and still buy new gear - i.e., my reloading setup consists of a Lee Anniversary kit (Challenger, single stage press) and Lee dies. The kit gave me the press, two quick change bushings, a scale, a powder measure, case lube (not necessary for pistol with carbide dies) a case mouth deburring tool, a primer pocket cleaning tool, a hand priming tool (I like this a lot) and a set of shell holders for the priming tool. All of that can be had for less than $100.

I like the Lee dies - they are less expensive than the competition, they come with a crimping die (the deluxe 4-die sets) and they come with a shell holder for the press - the other dies don't and you have to buy the shell holder separately.

When I start casting bullets, I'll probaby bypass the Lee stuff and get Lyman molds.

 

[alucard0822]

a little long winded, but hope this helps someone

It is best to match the press to your needs, if you shoot a couple thousand rounds a month in one or two calibers, then you can't go wrong with a Dillon, and needat least a progressive press, you would go insane with a single stage. If you reload in a lot of calibers, but low volume, basically 50 round lots, and especially if you are looking to caseform, and want the most quality control, then single stage is for you. If you like to shoot a couple hundred rounds a month, or a lot more if it is split up amongst a lot of calibers, a turret press would serve you well. If you fit into a few categories like me, I load .223, 45 and 9mm in 500 or 1,000 round lots, but also load match ammo, and low volume specialty loads mostly for mil-surps, so I ended up with a total of 4 presses, each serves a different purpose. The basic operations of reloading are fairly simple, you press a fired case into a steel die that forces the case, or a portion of it back into it's unfired shape and the spent primer is removed. Next, the case is filled with a measured powder charge, and a bullet is pressed into the case mouth to a specific depth. Finally the round is checked, and in many cases the bullet is crimped into place, or if the case mouth was flared slightly to make it easier to press the bullet in(straight wall cases) the flare is removed during the crimping process, carbide or collet dies also do not require lubrication to resize the case, they also can only size a straight portion of the case, either an entire case(most handgun ammo), or just the neck (bottlenecked rifle calibers).

There are several ways to load ammo, I use diferent presses and different operations for different caliber, or even a particular caliber destined for a specific gun.

For straight cased handgun ammo, I shoot a lot, and try to automate as many operations as possible, I start by cleaning cases in a tumbler, then basically check them as I dump them into a case feeded in a progressive press, then I basically keep pulling the handle, and set a bullet on top of the case in the 3rd station, outside of that, I just keep the powder and primer tray filled, and can pop out a couple hundred rounds in an hour. For revolver calibers, and 45ACP, I then run all the loaded rounds through a single stage press with a factory crimp/post sizing die, this is the best crimp there is, it is very uniform, and helps keep bullets from being pulled from there cases by recoil, the post sizing irons out any bulges caused by seating the bullet, or belling the case mouth a little too much, and ensures reliable feeding.

For bulk FMJ .223, I also shoot a lot, and start by tumbling spent brass, then I lube and resize/deprime the brass in my single stage press. The brass then goes back into the tumbler to clean off the lube. After cleaned a second time, I use a set of calipers set to maximum length to check each and every case, while visually checking them for cracks, anything cracked goes in the trash, anything that slides through the calipers, and is below the maximum length goes in 1 tray, everything else goes in another to be trimmed before rejoining the brass that was already in spec. I then use a progressive, with a universal decapper die set in the first position to knock any tumbling media out of the primer pockets, it then moves through priming, charging, and bullet seating dies before dropping into a tray. I then run it through the factory crimp die.

For small batches of mil-surp ammo, I tumble, lube, size, tumble, check and trim just like the bulk .223, but then prime separately using an autoprime II. then I charge with a drum powder measure, and set the charged brass in a loading block. The bullets are then seated in a single stage, and finally crimped in a factory crimp die.

For target rifle ammo using match bullets, I tumble, and then use a collet die to size the neck only, this keeps the body of the cases in their expanded fired shape to fit the chamber tightly of the bolt acion rifle they were previously fired in. Then ALL cases are run through the trimmer to make sure they are all the same length. I then prime with the autoprime II, and weigh each case, and zero the scale before charging it .2gr below the intended charge with the drum measure, I then set it back on the cale and use a powder trickler to bring it to the exact charge weight, it then goes in a loading block. The final step is to seat a bullet to an exact OAL a few thousandths shorter than the distance to the grooves of the barrel when chambered, they are not crimped, instead the rifling of the chamber end acts as the crimp to help build pressure consistently, and bring out the best accuracy.

All the data for OAL, charge weight, and what components to use are out of the Hodgdon manual. I start almost all loads initially reduced 10%, and make a few rounds in incrementally higher charge weights to find the most accurate charge that functions properly in semi-autos, or just go for peak accuracy in manual actions. OAL is usually determined by the loaction of the cannelure and crimp in most calibers, a gauge in the case of match ammo, or the max OAL in pistol ammo with adjustments made to find the most accurate and reliable load. Most of the specs have a min and a max, so OAL may be "in-spec" over a range of a few thousandths, and charge weights may vary by a few grains, always staying below published maximum loads. Certain brass, especially military brass may be thicker, and the lower case volume could cause too much pressure in a load that is perectly safe in thinner brass, so it is very important to work up loads slowly, and watch the groups, and keep different brands of brass separate. For handgun blasting ammo, there may be several different brands of brass that have very similar volumes, and can be mixed if accuracy is not that big of a deal, but in the case of rifles I weigh cases of different brands, and for blasting ammo, keep cases of similar weight and various brands in groups, so I can get pretty close to an ideal load without a lot of testing by just using loads that I know are good and safe in a case of that particular weight, and in turn volume.

A single stage is fast at a single operation, and allows for the die to be swapped quickly, and cheaply. It holds a single die and a single shell holder.

A progressive is by far the fastest start to finish, but costs the most to set up for multiple calibers, and skips some of what I feel are neccesary steps in rifle cases, tumbling the lube off, and trimming. It has a die plate for every operation, and holds a die over each station, often times it can automatically feed cases and bullets, every time the handle is pulled, a finished round is completed.

A turret press has a compromise, it is fairly easy and cheap to switch calibers, and allows for the case to be removed at any time, most of the time it can be used as a single stage, but can also advance a set of dies through operations, where each pull of the handle advances 1 operation, so after 3 or 4 pulls of the handle 1 round pops out. It has a single shell holder, and a set of dies in a rotating turret.

 

[boothdoc]

Alucard0822:

A+ post

I have just set-up my new rockchcker, tumbler, scale, and power measaure on an old government oak desk table. I am so looking foward to starting this whole shabang up. I have read about four manuals now and even have the following caliber specific books from midway-.223, .243, .280, .308, 30-06. I have been saving my brass for years now and will start the cleaning procces this weekend. Let me know when you need a reloading helper and I will be glad to head up and slave away.

The other thing is the actual act can be fun ( I hope).

Matt

 

[trickg]

Great post Alucard!

Dad had a Dillon press that purchased in the late 80s - I think it was a 330 - it only did handgun ammo but he could use his RCBS dies. He didn't have a case feeder, but even still, he could crank out the .45 ACP and 9mm that was necessary for his machine gun habit! But, if he was looking for a high degree of accuracy, he went right back to his single stage press, which was an old Pacific press.

But as I mentioned before, I got none of that stuff - I could have grabbed some of it, but I just didn't know what to take - that whole event (the sell off of his guns and gun related things) was pretty overwhelming for me - another story for another time.

Anyway, that's why I bought Lee stuff - mainly to save some cash on the startup expenses. I'd like to get a Lee Classic Turret press at some point to speed the process up a bit, but I've also given some thought to saving for a Dillon - it's just easier to swallow $80-$90 for a new press than it is to swallow $400 or more.

 

[alucard0822]

Alucard0822:

A+ post

I have just set-up my new rockchcker, tumbler, scale, and power measaure on an old government oak desk table. I am so looking foward to starting this whole shabang up. I have read about four manuals now and even have the following caliber specific books from midway-.223, .243, .280, .308, 30-06. I have been saving my brass for years now and will start the cleaning procces this weekend. Let me know when you need a reloading helper and I will be glad to head up and slave away.

The other thing is the actual act can be fun ( I hope).

Matt

, cool, I have been so buisy with work lately, I have done most of my reloading on an old forster style single stage C-clamped to my home office desk I'll give you a shout in a week or two when I can find what day I can take off.

All my gear is fairly inexpensive, My 2 progressives are Lee pro 1000's, and both the Rock chucker and co-ax were bought cheap second hand. All in all the setup costs only a couple hundred. I built the table myself out of scrap 2x4s and a big heavy peice of MDF

This is my setup in the basement:



This is what happens when I get stuck working 110 hours in 2 weeks, and need to load some ammo for a trip to the range after dealing with people for 10 hours

 

[boothdoc]

I feel your pain

I am working from 5am - 6pm 5 days a week for about 7 weeks now.

I am really looking foward to aataking off early on friday to hunt bambie

 

[trickg]

Updated Reloading Savings Numbers

I did some more figures tonight for my reloading endeavors and this is what I have come up with.

Dollar amounts are based on what I started with the thread -
$20 per box of .45 ACP
$28 per box of .44 Mag
$13 per box of .38 SPC

For this, I've included the cheap .38 special rounds I buy for about $13 a box. My figures will stay static at $6 per box for reloads, although at this point I'm getting my components for less, so the cost is down to about $5 per box, regardless of caliber - it's slightly different based on caliber, but it's close enough that it can be rounded. Also, keep in mind that these are all factory cast, sized and lubed lead bullets

.45 ACP - 1074 rounds, 21.48 boxes - $429.60 factory, $128.88 reloaded
.44 Mag - 777 rounds, 15.54 boxes - $435.12 factory, $93.24 reloaded
.38 SPC - 992 rounds, 19.84 boxes - $257.92 factory, $119.04 reloaded

Total cost if I had purchased - $1122.64
Total cost reloaded - $341.16

Total "savings" since July - $781.48 - just six months worth of reloading and shooting.

Based on some numbers I just looked up, (and keep in mind I'm looking at quality brass ammo, not el cheapo steel cased) it looks like .45 ACP can be had for about $18 a box, but .44 Mag is around $30 a box, and surprisingly enough, .38 special is running about $17 a box for 158 gr lead SWC, just like I reload, so the number can be fudged around a bit, but it's still over $700 worth. I could have paid for a Dillon setup plus some!

(I just ran the figures based on what I found for current ammo prices, and my savings would be $848.96, which is actually better than I thought, and it increases to $905 if I calculate my cost to reload at $5 per box)

If that's not a good argument for reloading, I don't know what is.

 

[trapture]

I calculated that with all of the hardware / components purchased it would only take 20-30 boxes till it has paid off the start up costs.

 

[trickg]

I calculated that with all of the hardware / components purchased it would only take 20-30 boxes till it has paid off the start up costs.

I've reloaded the equivalent of 56 boxes, and yeah - it has MORE than paid for itself.

But as I've always said, it's as much a matter of having the power to make decisions about how you want the load to go together as it is about being smart from an economical standpoint.

 

[sandeman]

makes perfect sense. Reply to trick G #1 post

 

[wlc]

What you not figuring into the equation is the cost of someones time + the greater risk of a loading error.

I am so busy - it's just not worth my time to sit in my basement for an hour and reload - I would rather spend the time shooting or cleaning
+ I know myself, and I don't want to risk messing up a load and destroying a gun.

 

[Llyrin]

I did hand loads in the 80s for .38 spec and .357 with a Lee Classic set. No press, just the dies, tools, and a rubber mallet. The only error I ever had out of about 20 boxes or so of reloads was one primer going off while seating it. Man, was that loud - stung my hands a little, but that was all.

I fired some of those 20+ year old .357 reloads last week and they were still A+. But, the next time I do reloads, it'll be with a Lee Anniversary kit I think.

 

[mikec]

I would be loading my own now except for the stupid law in thsi state that prohibits reloading in certain types of buildings. (apartments and/or condos)

I even have several thousand 5.56 and 7.62 FMJ bullets and cases sitting because I ordered them before I found out about the fire code. I almost ordered a press.

(For the MSP who read this site, all I have is brass and bullets, no powder or primers.)

 

[E.Shell]

Good to see you into this Patrick!

I started in 1971, and operate much like Alucard0822, loading some for economy, some for specialty or obsolete calibers.

I can't even imagine how much I've cut costs on the ammo over the years, but whether I've actually "saved" anything could be subject to debate, since I've been trying to make it up in volume.

I'm very sorry to inform you that the data your father accumulated will be interesting reading, but is of very limited value in today's reloading environment. It should not be used without carefully working back up to maximum loads.

First, the methods of measuring pressures have evolved to the point of showing us that many loads of yesteryear were unsafe.

Then, your components are totally different. Loads worked up years ago do not relate to recently purchased components, and even if you had the same powder and primers, they would have aged.

My suggestion would be to learn to work up your own loads, that will work with your components. Methods of working up loads will vary with the purpose.

I keep all load data in a looseleaf notebook, with page dividers to section it off by bullet diameter. This allows me to instantly reference data without having to dig through unwanted stuff, insert new pages as I add firearms or try new loads, and remove pages as I sell or modify firearms.

 

[DD214]

I can't even imagine how much I've cut costs on the ammo over the years, but whether I've actually "saved" anything could be subject to debate, since I've been trying to make it up in volume.

Yeah, that . Since I started reloading a few weeks ago, I've fired more handgun rounds than the entire year prior. I used to go to the handgun range about once every two months, but now I go two or three times per week during lunch. It's just too much fun to experiment with different loads and take them to the range for test and comparison. The real upside is that now I can hit the target.

 

[sandeman]

I thought I would jump on here and post what I thought was a very good page on basic reloading safety tips.

http://www.darkcanyon.net/john_wooters_reloading_safety_tips.htm

I do all of those things - mostly due from watching the great example set by my Dad, who was also very careful about what he did in his reloading, and how and where he stored his components. My reloading ledger that I keep I started because I knew he did it, and I figured it was a good idea, but it's right there in that tips page. At some point I hope to obtain all of his reloading ledgers that he kept from the 1950s when he started reloading. I'll have all the load recipes I need!

do you take orders? would you be interested in having a class? Thank You

 

[trickg]

What you not figuring into the equation is the cost of someones time + the greater risk of a loading error.

I am so busy - it's just not worth my time to sit in my basement for an hour and reload - I would rather spend the time shooting or cleaning
+ I know myself, and I don't want to risk messing up a load and destroying a gun.

I guess I can see your point, but once you get into it I think you'd see that it's tougher to make mistakes if you are paying attention to what you are doing than you might think. I don't load for rifle - yet, but with the handgun loading I do and the powders I use, about the only way to screw up the load so bad that would blow up the gun would be to completely double charge a case, and again, if you are paying attention to what you are doing, a double charged case is very easy to see if you look at your cases under good light.

And who says there can't be errors in factory ammo?

As for the time vs. money factor, the amount of money saved is well worth the amount of time I spend reloading, and I do everything single stage. If was really concerned about the time vs. money aspect, I'd upgrade to a Dillon 550 where the amount of time I'd spend reloading would be less time than it would take me to go out and buy fresh ammo. Seriously - 300-400 fresh reloads in an hour for a fraction of the cost of factory ammo - sounds like a wise investment for the person who likes to shoot a lot.

Ed - I do think that much of my Dad's reloading data would be ok to use. The powders are all the same basic formulations - he wasn't using anything fancy. Bullseye, HP-38, 2400, Blue Dot, Red Dot, H4198, H4895, H4831...those were all powders you'd see on his shelves. Some of those powders such as Bullseye and Unique have been around for a long, long time - virtually unchanged. Of course once I do get his reloading ledgers, any loading he had listed would of course be cross checked with current load data out of a new manual, but Dad wasn't into pushing the envelope on his loading and he always loaded within manual specifications.

sandeman - as far as I know, selling reloads is illegal unless you have a certification and license to be an ammo manufacturer. As for giving a class, I'd be more than happy to do a 1-on-1 in my home, but I'm basically only doing what I did with my dad growing up and what the manuals tell me to do. I hooked up a friend with a 1-on-1 "lesson" and he came away from that experience surprised that it wasn't more complicated, and that it was easier than he thought it was. He's now cranking out quality .40 S&W reloads on his own with a Lee Classic Turret press.

 

[mikec]

sandeman - as far as I know, selling reloads is illegal unless you have a certification and license to be an ammo manufacturer.

As mentioned before in other threads, there is a Federal excise tax on all ammo sold to civilians and the ATF wants to make sure the government gets their cut. Let's not forget that Uncle Martin also wants his share of the tax revenue too.

 

[kohburn]

so where do you guys buy your powder and primers? i was going to get into reloading around the end of 08 but it was too late and the shelves got cleaned out.