AR15 upper legality/concerns

[Pinecone]

Can you find that in the law?

(Just being a tool. Just like the one-shot requirement for the HQL, there is nothing in FSA about SBRs being 29”).

I agree there is nothing in the law.

But MSP is treating SBRs as if they are rifles for the copy cat provisions.

Just submit a Form 1 for a 28.9" SBR as see what happens.

 

[Pinecone]

Copycat provision means a copy of a enumerated assault weapon in COMAR. In FSA2013 it explicitly states that SBR's are exempt from the copycat provisions in the law. That means that all the "evil features" and <29" OAL do not apply to a SBR.

May want to go and look up what the law states, not what some gun shop, gut feelings, or BGOS says is or isn't legal.

Wrong.

That is COPY OR IMITATION.

Copy cat provisions are the 29" and evil features.

Here is the text from the law.

(E) (1) “COPYCAT WEAPON” MEANS:
(I) A SEMIAUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE RIFLE THAT CAN
ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE AND HAS ANY TWO OF THE FOLLOWING:

3. A FOLDING STOCK;
4. 3. 2. A GRENADE LAUNCHER OR FLARE LAUNCHER;
OR
5. 4. 3. A FLASH SUPPRESSOR; OR

(II) A SEMIAUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE RIFLE THAT HAS A
FIXED MAGAZINE WITH THE CAPACITY TO ACCEPT MORE THAN 10 ROUNDS;

(III) A SEMIAUTOMATIC CENTERFIRE RIFLE THAT HAS AN
OVERALL LENGTH OF LESS THAN 30 29 INCHES;

(V) (IV) A SEMIAUTOMATIC PISTOL WITH A FIXED
MAGAZINE THAT CAN ACCEPT MORE THAN 10 ROUNDS;

(VI) (V) A SEMIAUTOMATIC SHOTGUN THAT HAS:
1. A FOLDING STOCK;

(VII) (VI) A SHOTGUN WITH A REVOLVING CYLINDER.

(2) “COPYCAT WEAPON” DOES NOT INCLUDE AN ASSAULT LONG
GUN OR AN ASSAULT PISTOL.

 

[Pinecone]

I can hear it now. "But the ATF won't approve a SBR that is <29" OAL in MD!"

Well, the ATF is not always correct. In this case the ATF is wrong. But not my problem. Play the game the best you can, because you can't change the mind of a ATF agent anyways on MD law.

ATF is doing what they are told by MSP.

So MSP IS applying the copy cat provisions to SBRs.

You can debate all you want if they are correct in doing so or not, but it IS how the law is being applied.

 

[Pinecone]

That is true, however, ATF has denied form 1's on 10/22's that were to be SBR'd.

But, I have seen several reports, that when it was pointed out to ATF that it did not apply to rimfire, they did approve them.

 

[jfking]

this is getting more clear but nit much lol.

I know I can build 80% firearm for persona use including handgun as I've done one as well . But if I build a ar Rifle now post 2013 I need to follow rules set like hbar and I of course do follow those laws. My question is can I order form any site a ar upper of any length to my house ? like if I order a 7.5 or 10.5" does it need to ship to FFL ? a few sites won't mail to MD so I'm not sure if I order one and have one mailed to my door am I breaking any law ? if I make a a new 80% lower for use as a AR pistol for any sort of SBR upper is there any reason or law im breaking ? I want to always follow all laws and make sure im in compliance here when making my own. If im at the range or pulled over and have to explain my 80% rifle or 80% ar pistol I dont want any grey area of me breaking some MD law.

 

[jfking]

if building my own AR with 7.5 or 10.5" upper then I dont get what is considered a pistol or SBR . But I should be able to build either with no problems or grey area of getting into any sort of trouble with law. All my lowers are built by me from 80%.

 

[jfking]

Looking at ATF site even building my Own from 80% I can't do what im asking to do as you all are saying I can lol.

I appreciate your help but not getting clear answers that seem to line up with what im reading is MD law or ATF.

I want to build 2 new rifles form 80% and be in full compliance of state and federal laws .


I want to build a 7.5 Ar SBR from a fresh 80% lower .

I want to build a 10.5 ar SBR from Fresh 80% lower.

Can i order these uppers legally to my house ? if not put on any lowers yet ?

 

[jcutonilli]

18 USC 921 defines the following terms.

(3)The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

(7)The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

(8)The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

Currently only firearms need to be transfered through FFLs. AR uppers are currently only considered parts and not firearms.

The difference between a rifle and pistol on an AR is generally the presence of a shoulder stock on the lower for a rifle.

SBRs and other NFA items require approval from the ATF prior to construction.

 

[dblas]

this is getting more clear but nit much lol.

I know I can build 80% firearm for persona use including handgun as I've done one as well . But if I build a ar Rifle now post 2013 I need to follow rules set like hbar and I of course do follow those laws. My question is can I order form any site a ar upper of any length to my house ? like if I order a 7.5 or 10.5" does it need to ship to FFL ? a few sites won't mail to MD so I'm not sure if I order one and have one mailed to my door am I breaking any law ? if I make a a new 80% lower for use as a AR pistol for any sort of SBR upper is there any reason or law im breaking ? I want to always follow all laws and make sure im in compliance here when making my own. If im at the range or pulled over and have to explain my 80% rifle or 80% ar pistol I dont want any grey area of me breaking some MD law.

You can order any upper, of any length, and of any design you like, and they can be delivered directly to your door, no FFL required since the upper is not the serialed receiver.

There may manufacturers that refuse to ship to Maryland because they don't want to understand the laws, but that is a discussion for another thread.

 

[Pinecone]

I want to build a 7.5 Ar SBR from a fresh 80% lower . Illegal in MD, as it not a minimum of 29" long

I want to build a 10.5 ar SBR from Fresh 80% lower. Legal, no problem, just get your Form 1 approved BEFORE you assemble it as an SBR (less than 16" barrel and shoulder stock)

Can i order these uppers legally to my house ? if not put on any lowers yet ?

You can order all the uppers you want, legally. Even ones too short for an SBR in MD.

BUT, if you do not have a Tax Stamp, and you do not have a legal Pistol Lower, but you have a Rifle lower and uppers with barrels <16", you could get into trouble.

 

[jfking]

So no one being clear enough for me.

1) So can not build a 80% SBR for myself for personal use without doing paperwork telling / asking ATF for permission first ? yes or no ?
if I have to do this its not worth it to me . the only reason to build your own is negate this but also want to be fully compliant when building my own.

2) I can build a AR pistol for personal use just as I've built a 80% Glock ? yes or no ?
I don't want a pistol , no stock is not my thing

 

[rseymorejr]

So no one being clear enough for me.

1) So can not build a 80% SBR for myself for personal use without doing paperwork telling / asking ATF for permission first ? yes or no ?
if I have to do this its not worth it to me . the only reason to build your own is negate this but also want to be fully compliant when building my own.

2) I can build a AR pistol for personal use just as I've built a 80% Glock ? yes or no ?
I don't want a pistol , no stock is not my thing

1) Yes
2) Yes

 

[outrider58]

So no one being clear enough for me.

1) So can not build a 80% SBR for myself for personal use without doing paperwork telling / asking ATF for permission first ? yes or no ? No. You have to do a form1 and wait for approval from ATF. Doesn't matter where you got the lower from. You are making a gun. If you are a Maryland resident, the over all length must reach 29" or over.
if I have to do this its not worth it to me . the only reason to build your own is negate this but also want to be fully compliant when building my own.

2) I can build a AR pistol for personal use just as I've built a 80% Glock ? yes or no ? Yes
I don't want a pistol , no stock is not my thing

You can put a brace on your pistol, but technically, it is not legal to shoulder the brace while shooting.

 

[dblas]

So no one being clear enough for me.

1) So can not build a 80% SBR for myself for personal use without doing paperwork telling / asking ATF for permission first ? yes or no ?
if I have to do this its not worth it to me . the only reason to build your own is negate this but also want to be fully compliant when building my own.

No, per federal law, you need the form 1 completed first.

2) I can build a AR pistol for personal use just as I've built a 80% Glock ? yes or no ?
I don't want a pistol , no stock is not my thing

Yes, perfectly legal.

 

[Pinecone]

So no one being clear enough for me.

1) So can not build a 80% SBR for myself for personal use without doing paperwork telling / asking ATF for permission first ? yes or no ?
if I have to do this its not worth it to me . the only reason to build your own is negate this but also want to be fully compliant when building my own.

You CAN do so. But doing so would be a Federal felony.

SBRs are National Firearms Act of 1934 regulated firearms. Just like machine guns.

 

[jfking]

ugh guys . I get that its possible . im saying clearly I am and want to follow all laws .

So if I make a Ar pistol with a new dedicated lower and short upper it can't have a stock. What are Marylands rules on AR pistol ? as If I build it as. pistol I want it to be fully legitimate and proper.

Ideally id want a 10.5 " upper , can a AR pistol have a Brace on it and not a Stock ?

Using buffer tube only is dumb lol ,. id rather just not build one

 

[cogcon]

If I could sell my house right now, I'd be moved out of MD by midnight. And I don't get off work til 11:30pm tonight

#Megamillions!!!

 

[outrider58]

ugh guys . I get that its possible . im saying clearly I am and want to follow all laws .

So if I make a Ar pistol with a new dedicated lower and short upper it can't have a stock. What are Marylands rules on AR pistol ? as If I build it as. pistol I want it to be fully legitimate and proper.

Ideally id want a 10.5 " upper , can a AR pistol have a Brace on it and not a Stock ?

Using buffer tube only is dumb lol ,. id rather just not build one

If you build an AR pistol, what caliber do you want it in?



When you say "Dedicated lower", do you mean caliber specific? Like a 9mm dedicated lower?



To simplify;build your AR pistol with a 10.5" barrel, put a Sig Brace of some sort(SB makes a variety of braces) on it, and enjoy.


Dedicated Lower: An AR type lower that has a dedicated mag well that will only accept a particular type of magazine ie Glock mags, Colt type stick mags, MP5 mags etc. Any AR lower other than ones in .223/5.56 caliber are considered dedicated and are cash and carry. No 77r and no 7 day waiting period.


So, what caliber do you want your AR pistol to be?

 

[jcutonilli]

ugh guys . I get that its possible . im saying clearly I am and want to follow all laws .

So if I make a Ar pistol with a new dedicated lower and short upper it can't have a stock. What are Marylands rules on AR pistol ? as If I build it as. pistol I want it to be fully legitimate and proper.

Ideally id want a 10.5 " upper , can a AR pistol have a Brace on it and not a Stock ?

Using buffer tube only is dumb lol ,. id rather just not build one

I don't know why you hare having such trouble.

A rifle by definition is designed to be fired from the shoulder. Any AR that is designed to be fired from the shoulder is a rifle. An AR with a shoulderable stock would be considered a rifle. If that rifle has a barrel less than 16 in or less than 26 overall length then it is a short-barreled rifle and requires ATF approval prior to construction.

An AR pistol cannot be designed to be fired from the shoulder otherwise it would be a rifle. Currently the ATF has said that certain pistol braces are not designed to be fired from the shoulder so any firearm with them would not be considered a rifle. The ATF recently tried to change this interpretation of pistol braces, but withdrew that change. It is unclear if they will try to change this in the future. The ATF has said that you are not supposed to shoulder any firearm with a pistol brace.

 

[Growler215]

I thought the "it is not legal to shoulder a pistol brace" thing went away years ago and that the current interpretation was that sporatic shouldering of a pistol brace did not constitute a redesign.