Is 6.5x45 the same as 6.5 Grendel?

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  • DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    My dad read an article in American Hunter about the 6.5x45 cartridge that can be fired out of an AR15. Supposedly the 6.5x45 gives the same ballistics as a .257 Roberts, and he was justifiably curious about it. My question is, is the 6.5x45 the same dimensionally as 6.5 Grendel? If it is in fact the same cartridge, I can understand his confusion as to not knowing it is a 6.5 Grendel.

    He was seeing that a 223 case that is necked up to 6.5 would be interesting to play with as a varmint caliber on the AR.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Small arms designer/developer J.D. Jones of SSK Industries has developed what may just prove to be a superior solution to the 6.8x43mm SPC (a.k.a. 6.8 SPC) and/or 6.5 Grendel (6.5x39mm) cartidges as a replacement for the 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge for U.S. military general infantry and Special Operations (USSOCOM) use. Mr. Jones is calling it the 6.5mm Multi-Purpose Cartridge (6.5 MPC), and on paper, it looks pretty good.

    The 6.5 MPC (6.5x42mm) utilizes the...


    standard 5.56x45mm NATO/.223 Rem. case, which must be shortened by three (3) millimeters. However, to maximize powder capacity (and thus projectile velocity and ballistic/terminal performance), Mr. Jones pushed the case shoulder back a tad and increased the size of the case neck so it would accept a 6.5mm bullet. The result? A 95-grain "SSK Solid" bullet travelling at a muzzle velocity (MV) of approx. 2600 fps out of a 12-inch (12") barrel and approx. 2800 fps out of a 20-inch (20") barrel. So, were' guessing around 2700 fps out of a 16-inch (16") barrel (unconfirmed/unverified). Pretty respectable. Muzzle velocities for the 110-grain Sierra HP version of the 6.5 SPC are 2480 fps (12") and 2731 fps (20"). MVs for the 120-grain "SMK" round are 2220 fps (12") and 2400 fps (20"). 120-grains is the upper limit of bullet weight for this cartridge. Anything above that affords limited ballistic returns. Impact energy (terminal energy) is reportedly 30-50% greater for the 6.5 MPC over the 5.56mm NATO, depending on bullet weights and types, while the weapon remains highly controlloble on full-auto.

    The 6.5 MPC page at the SSK Industries website mentions that they've fired a 107-grain SMK round at 2400 fps out of a weapon with a 12"-barreled CQBR-type upper receiver and that effective engagement range is 300+ yards. With longer barrels, the distance is increased.

    So, why the 6.5 MPC instead of the 6.8 SPC? Ease and cost of conversion (weapons conversion), ammo capacity, and ammo weight (ammo carry capacity at a given load weight). The 6.5 MPC utilizes standard AR-15/M16/M4/M4A1 magazines and bolts, and will function in both the SOPMOD M4/M4A1 Carbine and belt-fed FN M249 SAW/LMG, provided you switch out the barrel(s). No further modification is reportedly necessary. Mag capacity for the 6.5mm MPC is 30 rounds (although you might still want to down-load it to 28, as many do with 5.56mm ammo for reliability purposes). The 6.8mm SPC doesn't stack properly in standard 5.56mm M4/M4A1 mags, and the magazines that have been developed for it limit ammo capacity to 25 rounds, as opposed to 30 rounds, so the 6.8 SPC mags will fit inside current military mag carry pouches. You can also use 5.56 NATO stripper clips to load 6.5 MPC rounds into the mag. At present, there are no 6.8 SPC stripper clips.

    6.5 MPC ammo will reportedly feed as reliably as 5.56x45mm NATO ball ammo, and it (6.5 MPC) can utilize standard M27 links (belt links) with no modification, so it will reportedly feed reliably through the M249 SAW. You only have to switch the barrel to 6.5mm caliber. Not so with the 6.8 SPC, which would require modification to the M27 link.

    The 6.8 SPC cartridge weighs approx. 40% more than the 5.56mm NATO cartridge. That, combined with the fact that 6.8 SPC mags are made of steel instead of aluminum (making the magazine roughly twice as heavy), means that the infantry warfighter or Spec-Operator will be able to carry less rounds of 6.8 SPC vs. 6.5 MPC or 5.56 NATO.

    Reported ammo carry capacity breakdown for the various cartridges at the same carry weight (specific weight unkown, and unconfirmed/unverified):

    5.56 NATO: 10 x 30-round mags = 300 rounds

    6.5 MPC: 9 x 30-round mags = 270 rounds

    6.8 SPC: 7 x 25-round mags = 175 rounds

    DefenseReview recommends that you read Stan Crist's article on the 6.5mm Multi-Purpose Cartridge in the #44 issue of Special Weapons for Military & Police (SWMP) magazine. That issue has a photo of a U.S. Ordnance M60E4/MK43 Mod1 Commando "light machine gun series" GPMG (7.62x51mm) on the cover, and the article is titled "SSK 6.5mm MPC: Multi-Purpose Cartridge delivers bet-your-life performance." While SSK Industries Website indicates that they developed the 6.5 MPC round at the behest of one Brian Hormberg (USMC), it should perhaps be noted that Stanley Crist mentions in his article that he wrote about his own idea for a 6.5mm assault rifle cartidge in the #36 Issue of Special Weapons for Military and Police. Mr. Crist called his cartridge the 6.5mm Standard Combat Cartridge (6.5 SCC).

    Bottom line, if the 6.5 MPC proves reliable in the AR-15/M16 and SOPMOD M4/M4A1 platforms, is combat accurate out to realistic assault rifle engagement distances, and the AR-type upper receivers and barrels hold up to full-auto fire at high round count, then it may just be the ticket for the 5.56's replacement (and thus a better answer than the 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel) for infantry assault rifles and carbines. Time, money, and politics will tell.
     

    yellowfin

    Pro 2A Gastronome
    Jul 30, 2010
    1,516
    Lancaster, PA
    What really needs to happen is for the 6mm Hagar, 6 Grendel, or .240 Tomahawk (6.8 necked down to 6mm and shoulder moved forward) to get SAAMI'd and have 10-15 AR manufacturers making uppers for it like the Blackout is. Then we'd be getting somewhere. The AR15 platform really needs Grendel or 6.8 case capacity to get the most out of 90-100+ grain bullets to do anything really worthwhile. The 5.56 case is perfect for what it's designed for but anything bigger than .224 diameter and/or 77 grains it's still always robbing Peter to pay Paul--you're either adding weight and dropping velocity or vice versa.
     

    dist1646

    Ultimate Member
    May 1, 2012
    8,758
    Eldersburg
    What really needs to happen is for the 6mm Hagar, 6 Grendel, or .240 Tomahawk (6.8 necked down to 6mm and shoulder moved forward) to get SAAMI'd and have 10-15 AR manufacturers making uppers for it like the Blackout is. Then we'd be getting somewhere. The AR15 platform really needs Grendel or 6.8 case capacity to get the most out of 90-100+ grain bullets to do anything really worthwhile. The 5.56 case is perfect for what it's designed for but anything bigger than .224 diameter and/or 77 grains it's still always robbing Peter to pay Paul--you're either adding weight and dropping velocity or vice versa.

    Hornady went through the SAAMI process for the 6 HAGAR. Hornady even made dies for the HAGAR. Unfortunately, the shortages hit and they had to concentrate on ammo that was already established and popular. If people want to see the 6 HAGAR produced as a factory round, they need to contact Hornady and let them know. If there is enough interest to make it financially viable, even in limited quantities, Hornady will make it.

    Hornady brass and dies for the 6mm HAGAR are available from Creedmoor Sports.
     

    yellowfin

    Pro 2A Gastronome
    Jul 30, 2010
    1,516
    Lancaster, PA
    Hornady went through the SAAMI process for the 6 HAGAR. Hornady even made dies for the HAGAR. Unfortunately, the shortages hit and they had to concentrate on ammo that was already established and popular. If people want to see the 6 HAGAR produced as a factory round, they need to contact Hornady and let them know. If there is enough interest to make it financially viable, even in limited quantities, Hornady will make it.

    Hornady brass and dies for the 6mm HAGAR are available from Creedmoor Sports.
    That's kind of the problem, mostly not. The issue is lack of a big major name manufacturer (then two, then ten) making uppers for them and putting them on the cover of magazines and featured in TV shows, online forum buzz, etc. driving the attention to it THEN or at least concurrently making the ammo. Who cares about ammo and dies for rifles nobody sees on the shelf? The 300 Blackout and 6.8 SPC have taken off because guns which people hear about then can find use them and the effort was put forth in a coordinated manner to make that so. You saw an article or online post, companies hyped it, then lo and behold they actually delivered the goods within an acceptable timespan and reasonable abundance via multiple brands people actually knew with the distribution and volume to be reliable and consistent. Not the one gun maker's Compact Ultra Magnum with $2 apiece brass and 2 factory loadings at $50 a box made only in 2 models available only through one distributor.

    That's what I mean needs to happen with the 6 Hagar. Or the Grendel. Or whatever it's going to be, the bigger than 5.56 caliber that actually has retained energy and trajectory downrange like what we like to think of in a rifle round that doesn't take a 10lb AR-10 to do it. Less like the .30-30 and more like the .30-06, in essence. They need to do for it what they did for the Blackout and 6.8. Get Smith & Wesson, Daniel Defense, Sig, Stag, Ruger, Colt, and other names that people actually see in shops to make rifles and put them on the shelves for people to buy and teach the public why they should be buying them. Put ammo on the shelves so people don't say screw it I won't buy something I can't get ammo to shoot. They CAN do it. We just saw them do it.

    Or get on with it already with the AR-10's instead of dabbling at it putting 1 or 2 on the shelf for every two dozen they do of typical 5.56 AR's.
     

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