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  • Mark K

    Active Member
    Sep 29, 2013
    280
    Colorado Springs, CO
    I was doing some 9mm reloading today, and noticed something about some range-pickup casings that I'd deprimed and cleaned several years ago. This may be common knowledge, but...

    First, some of the casings have cannelures around the middle. All apparently Speer. The ones with the cannelures have dots before and after the FC:

    wpj35yp.jpg


    There is also other .FC. brass (dots before and after the FC) that doesn't have the cannelures:

    pqSgYbK.jpg


    I understand the cannelures in the casings are just there to prevent bullet setback...?

    Second, there's some NATO- and WMA-headstamped brass. I can't find the WMA headstamp referenced anywhere. The primer pockets all appear to have been crimped:

    AOtM058.jpg


    I don't remember any particular difficulty depriming them, but seating new primers today was a bit "crunchy." They all seated properly.

    I know that military rifle cartridges today generally have crimped primers for use in select-fire rifles or machine guns. But there aren't many 9mm submachine guns in use today within NATO. I know the Germans used to use Uzis, but that was years ago. Maybe for the MP5...?
     

    Rockzilla

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 6, 2010
    4,516
    55.751244 / 37.618423
    the cannelure around the case aids in prevention of bullet set back

    the dots unsure of, most do it to separate things on the headstamp
    some manufactures "farm out" their brass manufacturing.

    lastly. the headstamps
    WMA = Winchester
    WCC = Winchester
    WRA = Winchester

    the circle with the plus sign is Nato designation

    Crimped in primers whether there is a "ring" around the pocket,
    or "stabbing / staking" 3 or 4 marks around the pocket
    you will run across some "commerical" brass that has "crimped" primers
    some suggest over-runs into the commerical market
    all have to be removed it's basically your choice, ream / swage
    there are pro's and con's to each, uniform brass, thickness, etc. or
    your removing metal in which reduces the strength of the pocket,
    but your choice, some use countersinks of various angles. 60, 80,
    100, 110, 120 degree there are others.

    this my help in the furure:
    https://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=headstampcodes

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_headstamps

    wll be interesting to see now that Olin has the contract to run the Lake City Plant.

    on a side note some of the "IMI" marked 9mm+ ammo a few years ago
    was for Sub-guns in "extreme cold" conditions, while they worked great at low temps
    warm em up and they are hot....
    Work great in Uzi's, MP5's

    -Rock
     

    U.S.SFC_RET

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 8, 2005
    6,700
    Some of the military stuff have primer pockets that are crimped so that means they need to get swaged. I never paid attention to the dotted lines on the brass.
     

    Mark K

    Active Member
    Sep 29, 2013
    280
    Colorado Springs, CO
    you will run across some "commerical" brass that has "crimped" primers
    some suggest over-runs into the commerical market
    all have to be removed

    Some of the military stuff have primer pockets that are crimped so that means they need to get swaged.

    OK, the crimped 9mm primer pockets were Winchester military. Whom were they made for? Waht NATO military 9mm SMGs are there these days, other than maybe MP5s for certain units?

    Necessary for them to crimp primers in 9mm, even for full-auto?

    My eyes are too old to check all pistol brass for military headstamps or crimping. For .223 and 5.56, I do routinely lightly ream out all the primer pockets, whether they need it or not. But I'm not used to worrying about that for 9mm, and would prefer to to have to start. Like I said, the new primers seated well; just with a bit more resistance.

    Besides, this is the only time I remember having run into crimped 9mm primers...
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,736
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Ammo companies farm out their brass routinely. If you are familiar with the dished head of a Speer case, you can tell when Federal contracts to Speer to make their brass as it comes out different than when it is done on Federal machines. Same way with the headstamps. Actual Federal machines have a deep block letters. Those that are farmed out (to who I haven't found out yet) have light letters with dots on either side.
     

    Rockzilla

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 6, 2010
    4,516
    55.751244 / 37.618423
    Primers are mainly crimped to hold them in place so
    they won't go missing in the actions, ie: pop out

    "Many military full-auto weapons function with excess headspace
    settings that would make any self-respecting precision rifle gunsmith
    recoil with horror. A classic symptom of excessive headspace is backed
    out primers - put a gap between the bolt-face and case-head and the
    primer is left unsupported and its detonation pushes it out of the case
    until it reaches the bolt-face as a stop. Machineguns still function even
    when headspace is such that cases separate. A classic MG training drill
    was to deliberately set the gun up badly to subsequently induce a case
    separation related jam leaving the trainee to clear it, do a field strip,
    reassemble the gun with correct headspace and resume firing. This might
    be in a night firing exercise to make things more fun!

    In any event, any milspec ammo which might be used in full-auto weapons
    usually has a crimped in primer in the specification to stop any primer movement
    out of the case. Purely a reliability issue."


    As far as in the retail channel....
    The ammo could be LE, Military, or other government agency. Then there is either
    a over-run in the production, they already fulfilled the quota or contract run, so
    therefore it hits the commerical market supply chain.

    As far as Sub-guns you'd be surprised....
    APC9 PRO, MP5's, Uzi's and other variants

    I don't keep up on the stuff like I used to, maybe I should..

    As John from MD.said
    Ammo companies do "farm out the brass part" in a few cases (no pun) one manufacture
    may make several runs for different companies with their headstamp. I used to remember
    who made who's but run it thru "duckduckgo" and see what pops-up
    at one time Federal / Speer / Winchester / Remington, did it just had their headstamp and
    the brass varied in make-up / formula.

    45 ACP has crimped primers also and then the now with small and large
    WCC / WRA are crimped "except Match" I'm sure there are others.In
    my brass bin (ammo cans)

    -Rock
     

    GolfR

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 20, 2016
    1,324
    Columbia MD
    Assuming that you aren’t loading 9mm major rounds, just load them all the same. All those cases will work just fine with no need to swage or ream. The crimped pockets will take more pressure to seat them and you want to get them the whole way in. I’ve found that sometimes the primer will get a little flattened from the extra pressure in my Dillon 650 but they all go boom.

    You do want to check to make sure that the edge of the primer doesn’t catch and create a ridge that sticks up that would prevent feeding or the primer doesn’t turn sideways and smoosh in. If I have a bunch of crimped brass I might get a couple every 100 rounds that get screwed up. It’s worth losing a couple cases and a few primers to not sort or swage.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    Assuming that you aren’t loading 9mm major rounds, just load them all the same. All those cases will work just fine with no need to swage or ream. The crimped pockets will take more pressure to seat them and you want to get them the whole way in. I’ve found that sometimes the primer will get a little flattened from the extra pressure in my Dillon 650 but they all go boom.

    You do want to check to make sure that the edge of the primer doesn’t catch and create a ridge that sticks up that would prevent feeding or the primer doesn’t turn sideways and smoosh in. If I have a bunch of crimped brass I might get a couple every 100 rounds that get screwed up. It’s worth losing a couple cases and a few primers to not sort or swage.


    This^^^
    I've never had to resort to reaming pockets on pistol brass(9mm). Just jam them on in there.
     

    Rockzilla

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 6, 2010
    4,516
    55.751244 / 37.618423
    I might get a couple every 100 rounds that get screwed up. It’s worth losing a couple cases and a few primers to not sort or swage.

    in todays climate....hmmm:D:D

    Prefer to not lose any primers...but hey that's me...

    it's all good...

    did the "jam" thing once, I'll pass......"bang" YMMV...

    -Rock
     

    Oswaldo87

    Active Member
    Feb 1, 2020
    151
    Frederick County
    Not to get off subject but there is a guy at my gun club that reams the life out of all his primer pockets. Reams at least a third of the way down. None of the brass I’ve picked up (.38 Spl and .223) have had blown primers or flats. And none of the .38s need reaming. Dude just enjoys doing it.
    I inspect every piece I pick up and don’t mind filling the scrap bucket. Just me and my ocd. And all brass get sorted by headstamp.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Crimped in primers whether there is a "ring" around the pocket, or "stabbing / staking" 3 or 4 marks around the pocket
    you will run across some "commerical" brass that has "crimped" primers
    some suggest over-runs into the commerical market all have to be removed it's basically your choice, ream / swage there are pro's and con's to each, uniform brass, thickness, etc. or your removing metal in which reduces the strength of the pocket, but your choice, some use countersinks of various angles. 60, 80, 100, 110, 120 degree

    You can see the ring in the OP picture of the WMA round.

    I did not realize you could just load 9mm without reaming/swaging.

    I have a LOT of military, once fired, 9mm brass that I am dreading having to swage.

    I wish I could find someone with a 1050 set up for 9mm that I could use for a while to just decapp/swage all this 9mm brass.
     

    Mark K

    Active Member
    Sep 29, 2013
    280
    Colorado Springs, CO
    I did not realize you could just load 9mm without reaming/swaging.

    I have a LOT of military, once fired, 9mm brass that I am dreading having to swage.

    Well, like I said, I was able to set the new primers into the crimped pockets well without having to ream or swage. Using the Hornady primer arm that came with my Lock n Load single-stage press. Felt a little bit more resistance than usual, and not as smooth. But the primers seated properly to just below the level of the case head.

    I don't run into a lot of this primer-crimped 9mm brass.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    You can see the ring in the OP picture of the WMA round.

    I did not realize you could just load 9mm without reaming/swaging.

    I have a LOT of military, once fired, 9mm brass that I am dreading having to swage.

    I wish I could find someone with a 1050 set up for 9mm that I could use for a while to just decapp/swage all this 9mm brass.
    I would not recommend setting out to load one after another without reaming or swaging. One or two out of a hundred on the 550 is one thing...
     

    Rockzilla

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 6, 2010
    4,516
    55.751244 / 37.618423
    You can see the ring in the OP picture of the WMA round.

    I did not realize you could just load 9mm without reaming/swaging.

    I have a LOT of military, once fired, 9mm brass that I am dreading having to swage..


    Maybe a few on a regular basis don't think I would do a batch.

    Have some 9 in fat 50 cans..WCC head stamp, and some cans of IMI brass.
    May have to get the Lee press that's out for swaging them. Mainly ream here with
    a countersink. Guess ain't no time like the present to start processing it, kinda put
    Things on hold these last couple months.

    Got a few #'s of various military cartridges...

    -Rock
     

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