Major & Minor

Speedluvn · Jan 2, 2021

Can someone steer me to a useful link that explains this for IPSC and other organizations that use this classification?

Am I correct in my understanding that nothing in 9mm will meet the major classification?

missedthebarn · Jan 2, 2021

There were/are a few places that sell 147gr that meet the major power factor, problem is they all clearly say that it exceeds SAAMI specs for pressure. Personally I like my handguns intact.

wabbit · Jan 2, 2021

https://uspsa.org/rules

Here is a useful link.
To make major power factor, you need to have .40 caliber or larger.
9mm is scored minor except in Open Division where it can be pushed to major power factor. The USPSA rules align with IPSC so if you are making major power factor in the US, you'll be major power factor when you go shoot overseas.

Speedluvn · Jan 2, 2021

I shot a IPSC competition in the mid 90’s or so with a 9mm Beretta 92Fs not knowing anything about power factors.

During my current search it seems as though I was reading about individuals asking about 9mm making major, which only confused me more.

Thanks for the link.

gwchem · Jan 2, 2021

9 major exists, but it's only allowed in open division for uspsa/ipsc. Other divisions have a minimum bullet diameter for major of .40. I'm guessing since you asked, that you're not intending to shoot open, correct?

There are a few factory loads for 9 major, I believe atlanta arms is the most popular. It's loaded longer than 9 minor usually.

Speedluvn · Jan 2, 2021

gwchem said:
9 major exists, but it's only allowed in open division for uspsa/ipsc. Other divisions have a minimum bullet diameter for major of .40. I'm guessing since you asked, that you're not intending to shoot open, correct?

There are a few factory loads for 9 major, I believe atlanta arms is the most popular. It's loaded longer than 9 minor usually.

No open classes. I’m reviewing the rules now to look into suitable equipment for the not too distant future. I needed some clarity on the power factor.

jimbobborg · Jan 3, 2021

Power factor is the weight of the bullet in grains times the velocity in feet per second divided by 1000. Major requires 165 or higher. Minor requires 125 or higher. 9mm Luger will not be accepted as a Major power factor caliber in anything except the Open division. Major power factor only has meaning in Limited, Revolver, and Open. Production and PCC divisions have no Major power factor option.

Pinecone · Jan 3, 2021

And what it means to you, is Minor has lower scoring for other than center hits.

On a USPSA standard target, the A zone scores 5 points for both Major and Minor. B and C zone score 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor. D zone hits score 2 for Major, 1 for Minor.

So if you make ALL A zone hits, you are fine. But you drop 1 point per hit outside the A zone.

--------Edited points for D zone hits -------------

erwos · Jan 3, 2021

You can make 9mm hit major power factor. As others have noted, there's some issues with doing it with a random pistol:
1. 9 Major is only a thing for Open. You cannot use it in Limited. This limits the utility of this particular trick.
2. Most pistols are not really designed to eat a steady load of it (Glocks in particular tend to shoot themselves apart)
3. Most pistols are not designed to deal with the longer OALs required to load it to something like reasonable pressures (CZ-75s coming to mind, unless you have a Czechmate).
4. If you are using random once-fired cases, you really have no idea how much life is left in that case, which isn't exactly what you want when you're loading to 20% over max pressure.

Basically, unless you reload, have a 2011, and know exactly what you're doing, you are way better off just shooting .40S&W to make major PF. The only downside to 40S&W is losing a couple rounds of capacity. If capacity loss is a deal-breaker, there's always 38 Super.

Pale Ryder · Jan 3, 2021

It has all been done before, and the answer back then was 38 Super.

Speedluvn · Jan 3, 2021

I appreciate the info in this thread. It’s extremely helpful for me moving forward.

Pinecone · Jan 4, 2021

Pale Ryder said:
It has all been done before, and the answer back then was 38 Super.

But then came the other long 9s. Like 9x23 and 9x25 variants.

.38 Super has that goofy semi rim.

It seems like there are rimless versions of the .38 Super also.

Rimless .38 Super cartridge case variants

Starline 38 Super Comp rimless brass
In recent years, cases such as the .38 Super Comp, .38 Super Lapua, .38 Super RL (Armscor), and .38 TJ (.38 Todd Jarrett) became available transforming the .38 Super into an almost truly rimless cartridge. These "rimless" cases are somewhat of a misnomer, due to the case rim not retaining the same diameter as the case wall just forward of the extractor groove. A common example is the .38 Super Comp case, which has a semi-rim extending only .003–.004 inch per side, compared to standard .38 Super which has .007–.009 inch per side. The main reason for the development of new cases was due to the semi-rimmed .38 Super case not always feeding reliably from the double-stack box-magazines used in several semi-automatic pistols popular with practical shooting sports, such as United States Practical Shooting Association (USPSA) or International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC). The nearly rimless cases improve feeding reliability in these pistols but are intended to be used in firearms that headspace on the case mouth.[7] Other improvements found in some of these cases are modified extractor grooves and increased thickness in key parts of the brass for high pressure loadings.

Pinecone · Jan 4, 2021

jimbobborg said:
Power factor is the weight of the bullet in grains times the velocity in feet per second divided by 1000. Major requires 165 or higher. Minor requires 125 or higher. 9mm Luger will not be accepted as a Major power factor caliber in anything except the Open division. Major power factor only has meaning in Limited, Revolver, and Open. Production and PCC divisions have no Major power factor option.

FYI, it used to be 175 to make Major.

Another factor is if any Pepper Poppers are actually calibrated. When properly calibrated, a hit on the circular portion with a Major round will knock it down, but a Minor hit will not.

To known down a properly calibrated Popper with Minor, requires you hit the upper section.

I have a 9mm load that goes exactly at 125 PF, and when I ROd, I actually calibrated the Poppers.

gwchem · Jan 4, 2021

Pinecone said:
FYI, it used to be 175 to make Major.

Another factor is if any Pepper Poppers are actually calibrated. When properly calibrated, a hit on the circular portion with a Major round will knock it down, but a Minor hit will not.

To known down a properly calibrated Popper with Minor, requires you hit the upper section.

I have a 9mm load that goes exactly at 125 PF, and when I ROd, I actually calibrated the Poppers.

That's not accurate. The popper should be set to fall with a minor hit to the calibration zone, which is the circle in the middle.

Pinecone · Jan 8, 2021

gwchem said:
That's not accurate. The popper should be set to fall with a minor hit to the calibration zone, which is the circle in the middle.

Then the settings changed.

In the 90s it was minor to the upper segment.

But let me see if I can find one of my rule books from back then.

photoracer · Jan 12, 2021

I started out in USPSA shooting 9x23mm because that is what I found first. It was easy to make Major. 8.7g of Auto Comp with a 124g bullet is about 180 PF with a 5" 2011 double stack firearm. There were several powders that worked well. With 9 Major you are limited with what you can use to make it. Pretty sure they lowered Major so 9mm could maker a power level that did not go beyond the SAAMI rating.
First USPSA match I attended I fired one of my Major loads at the first steel target on the stage and it did not fall down so I called for a target re-test and it was in fact set heavy as even the spec gun could not knock it down. That was in, I think, 2009. Never had that happen again.
One thing is that a number of years ago they added .357Sig to the Major list in Limited. Main reason they changed Limited many years ago is that in the early days 38 Super/9x23 could be shot as Major in Limited and it put the .40 S&W at a disadvantage due to magazine capacity. So they changed limited to a minimum caliber of .40 (10mm is also legal). Then a few years ago due to lobbying they added .357Sig into Limited as Major because it has the same mag capacity as .40 since it uses the same case. Also the standard load for .357Sig is 125g at 1350 FPS which is over 165 PF. But they will test your load if you shoot at a major match.

gwchem · Jan 12, 2021

photoracer said:
I started out in USPSA shooting 9x23mm because that is what I found first. It was easy to make Major. 8.7g of Auto Comp with a 124g bullet is about 180 PF with a 5" 2011 double stack firearm. There were several powders that worked well. With 9 Major you are limited with what you can use to make it. Pretty sure they lowered Major so 9mm could maker a power level that did not go beyond the SAAMI rating.
First USPSA match I attended I fired one of my Major loads at the first steel target on the stage and it did not fall down so I called for a target re-test and it was in fact set heavy as even the spec gun could not knock it down. That was in, I think, 2009. Never had that happen again.
One thing is that a number of years ago they added .357Sig to the Major list in Limited. Main reason they changed Limited many years ago is that in the early days 38 Super/9x23 could be shot as Major in Limited and it put the .40 S&W at a disadvantage due to magazine capacity. So they changed limited to a minimum caliber of .40 (10mm is also legal). Then a few years ago due to lobbying they added .357Sig into Limited as Major because it has the same mag capacity as .40 since it uses the same case. Also the standard load for .357Sig is 125g at 1350 FPS which is over 165 PF. But they will test your load if you shoot at a major match.

Nobody is really shooting .357Sig. It seems the extra two rounds isn't worth the extra cost of the brass. I can start with 20 in the gun with .40, and rarely have a stage without a natural place to reload.

Speedluvn · Jan 12, 2021

photoracer said:
I started out in USPSA shooting 9x23mm because that is what I found first. It was easy to make Major. 8.7g of Auto Comp with a 124g bullet is about 180 PF with a 5" 2011 double stack firearm. There were several powders that worked well. With 9 Major you are limited with what you can use to make it. Pretty sure they lowered Major so 9mm could maker a power level that did not go beyond the SAAMI rating.
First USPSA match I attended I fired one of my Major loads at the first steel target on the stage and it did not fall down so I called for a target re-test and it was in fact set heavy as even the spec gun could not knock it down. That was in, I think, 2009. Never had that happen again.
One thing is that a number of years ago they added .357Sig to the Major list in Limited. Main reason they changed Limited many years ago is that in the early days 38 Super/9x23 could be shot as Major in Limited and it put the .40 S&W at a disadvantage due to magazine capacity. So they changed limited to a minimum caliber of .40 (10mm is also legal). Then a few years ago due to lobbying they added .357Sig into Limited as Major because it has the same mag capacity as .40 since it uses the same case. Also the standard load for .357Sig is 125g at 1350 FPS which is over 165 PF. But they will test your load if you shoot at a major match.

gwchem said:
Nobody is really shooting .357Sig. It seems the extra two rounds isn't worth the extra cost of the brass. I can start with 20 in the gun with .40, and rarely have a stage without a natural place to reload.

Thanks for the good info in this thread. I’m already set to reload 40 s&w. I’ve always felt the .357Sig round was a fad round when it was introduced nearly two decades ago or so?

Keep the info coming!

photoracer · Feb 4, 2021

Single Stack also has Major and Minor.
However when you want to go over and shoot Steel Challenge, which uses the divisions and firearm rules of USPSA/IPSC, they throw the power factors out so you can shoot 9mm in everything (including revolvers)

Biggfoot44 · Feb 5, 2021

( Admittedly as mostly intrested observer , having only shot IPSC once back in the day .)

Back in the days of " Real Major " Power Factor , Major 9 was Really high pressure , and RUD events were not uncommon . The watered down Major , and minimum diameter for certain classes was at least partly a Safety measure .

( Same dynamics in IHMSA with the rule change re: the setting of 200M Rams . When the Rams were set in the same manner as the other targets , they were very marginal to be knocked down by .357 Mag . With Extra , Extra , Extra Hot .357 loads in effort to reliably and consistently take down Rams , it was not uncommon for guns to blow up on the firing line in matches .)

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