4th Circuit: Walker v Putnam County, open carry of AR by pedestrian in WV

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  • tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    The conclusions of the court that Walker was reasonably suspected of being a minor due to his youthful appearance and the fact he was walking and not driving, combined with the fact he was walking towards Teays Valley Christian (I have two ex-girlfriend who went there) while carrying an AR15 and wearing military-style camo less than a week after the Parkland shooting is pretty much the crux of the ruling and stands on its merits. The other stuff in the ruling about AR-15 rifles not being commonly used for hunting is weak and would be demolished quickly.

    I doubt it gets overturned in 4C.

    Edit: FWIW, I'm quite unsure of where his destination could have been for coyote hunting. Where he was stopped is miles from any potential hunting grounds
     

    frogman68

    товарищ плачевная
    Apr 7, 2013
    8,774
    Wouldnt this put a crimp in MD "theory" that open carry of a long gun is legal so no need to conceal carry ??
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,948
    Marylandstan
    Is suspicious behaviour a misdemeanor or felony?

    What behaviour is suspicious? What is suspicious looking?

    My son in law is puerto rican/black parents. He gets stop frequently enough for looking suspicious. Even with white wife and my grand daughter in back seat.
     

    nedsurf

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 8, 2013
    2,204
    The 4th cir. precedent set in U.S. v. Robinson of "Armed and therefore dangerous." needs to be struck down.
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    When being a pedestrian is considered suspicious behavior, it's a sad time in our country.

    Knowing the area he was in quite well, it's not one where you normally see pedestrians just walking along on their way to hunt coyotes.

    If I were walking that road, towards the school, in military camo, with any gun carried openly, I'd expect to be questioned by police.

    Two miles east, walking down Scary Creek Rd? Nobody would give it a second thought, but that close to a school right after Parkland? Not bright.

    Part of being a responsible gun owner is responsibility for the image you are projecting and not making dumb decisions.
     

    Nobody

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 15, 2009
    2,810
    The cop did not have the authority to DEMAND his ID. He is within his power to ASK but the gentleman had no obligation to give it.

    I believe i would have taken the ride. The lawsuit would have been worth it although if he would have pressed the Issue the LEO probably would not have arrested.

    I have uber respect for LEO albeit just a little less than I do for my rights. I will cooperate with law enforcement within the confines of law.

    He should have said i have ID. It is in my pocket and i will not resist but i do not give you permission to get it. If the LEO had the power to get it he would, or it would make a great 4th amendment lawsuit.

    Nobody
     

    Kharn

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 9, 2008
    3,578
    Hazzard County
    10 March, 2pm session
    attachment.php
     

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    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    The cop did not have the authority to DEMAND his ID. He is within his power to ASK but the gentleman had no obligation to give it.

    I believe i would have taken the ride. The lawsuit would have been worth it although if he would have pressed the Issue the LEO probably would not have arrested.

    I have uber respect for LEO albeit just a little less than I do for my rights. I will cooperate with law enforcement within the confines of law.

    He should have said i have ID. It is in my pocket and i will not resist but i do not give you permission to get it. If the LEO had the power to get it he would, or it would make a great 4th amendment lawsuit.

    Nobody

    Don’t know some of WV laws.

    I guess I missing some of the arguments of the defense. Video isn’t working for me to see the counter.

    But it sounds like looked like a kid in camo with an AR near and walking towards a school a few days after Parkland? Stopped the kid to investigate and turns out he was a minor and couldn’t be in possession of the rifle?

    Last I checked there wasn’t anything saying you can’t use age to profile someone when age might be an indicator of illegal activity. You can’t ask someone who looks like a kid drinking a beer for ID if they appear under 21?

    If you can’t be in legal possession of a firearm at a certain age, then appearance of age should be a determinant in further investigation.

    Things like sex and race aren’t. At least it’s been a lot of years since they have been.

    PS not sure if the officer asked for it, but if “hunting” was offered as an excuse, the officer can demand the person’s hunting license AND a photo ID (well, at least under MD law). And yeah, they can detain you if you fail to provide it.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Walker was 24 years old when he was stopped.

    Sorry, yes. My point is if someone APPEARS to not be of legal age, how is that profiling to use that to conduct a check to verify? He was a prohibited person (priors) right?

    Age is a direct determinant of a legal activity and it doesn’t take too much judgement or profiling to take a guess if someone might be old enough or not.

    Maybe I am way off base there. I got carded in to my 30s for buying alcohol until I grew a beard. I’ve had cop ask for ID before when I was at a public event drinking in my late 20s.
     

    Nobody

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 15, 2009
    2,810
    Sorry, yes. My point is if someone APPEARS to not be of legal age, how is that profiling to use that to conduct a check to verify? He was a prohibited person (priors) right?
    .

    You are using 2 different arguments from one fact.

    Let's say he did look under age, i would show state issued ID with my picture and birthday while covering my name. I am over 21 boom end of stop.

    To ask his name is stretching the stop past the initial scope. The cop had no legal authority to run his name to see if he was prohibited (he was not) if the justification for the stop was questioning his age.

    The fact that Parkland was just prior to this has no bearing on this stop. Prior facts don't trump law or bill of rights.

    I don't like the OC of long guns. I support your decision to do it but i don't like it.

    Nobody
     

    Kharn

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 9, 2008
    3,578
    Hazzard County
    Sorry, yes. My point is if someone APPEARS to not be of legal age, how is that profiling to use that to conduct a check to verify? He was a prohibited person (priors) right?

    Age is a direct determinant of a legal activity and it doesn’t take too much judgement or profiling to take a guess if someone might be old enough or not.

    Maybe I am way off base there. I got carded in to my 30s for buying alcohol until I grew a beard. I’ve had cop ask for ID before when I was at a public event drinking in my late 20s.
    He was not and is not a prohibited person. The police let him continue walking with his rifle after the confrontation.

    The interesting tie in to MD, if the court agrees Walker should not have been stopped for his legal activity:
    Delegate Mike's acting debute :mdpatriot :lol2:
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,598
    Glen Burnie
    I see both sides of this.

    I think both Donahoe and Walker handled things poorly - they got in a pissing contest. Ultimately I think that Walker was right - not the officer - but belligerence is a bad idea in general.

    If I had been the officer, I probably would have approached with a different mindset - clearly someone walking openly down the road, open carrying so blatantly is probably aware of their rights. I'd have approached (No lights on the car - just pulled up) and said something to the effect of, "hey - we got a call about you because you're open carrying a gun? Can I give you a lift to where you're going?" Something along those lines.

    We're all in this together, and things like this have a way of getting out of hand in a hurry.

    When I was a kid my Dad would dump me off next to the sewer ponds just south of town with a pump shotgun and a vest full of bird shot shells. I'd stomp around out there for a while, seeing if I could scare up a pheasant or two, or some other upland game. Sometimes Dad would come pick me up, but other times I would decide I was done, and start walking home. Sometimes he'd find me along the way and take me the rest of the way home, (my Dad WAS the local law, so he was constantly driving around the town - it was about 50/50 where he'd see me walking in and give me a ride the rest of the way) and sometimes I'd get all the way home. The whole time I was packing an 870 12 gauge pump shotgun. I had people offer to give me a ride, but I never got hassled, and to my knowledge no one ever called in. I might not have even been old enough to drive at the time - I think I was only 14 or so. (In hindsight, although I had my Hunter's Safety card from the course I took, I think I was supposed to be with a supervising adult.)

    Of course this was rural Nebraska in the mid 1980s - seeing kids walking in or out from the outskirts of town to hunt wasn't unusual back then in that part of the country.
     

    Kharn

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 9, 2008
    3,578
    Hazzard County
    Oral argument panel was Judges King (Clinton), Keenan (Obama) and Richardson (Trump).

    Judge Julius Richardson prosecuted Dylan Roof after the Charleston church shooting. Clerked for Richard Posner and CJ Rehnquist, member of the federalist society. He's only been a judge for two years.

    Audio: Youtube: Here at the 2:35 mark (last case heard), title card changes to show "20-1547 Walker v Donahoe" when at the right mark
    Or Download MP3 here by scrolling to 20-1547

    Walker's attorney's Youtube debrief following argument

    A strongly worded dissent would be nice. :kicknuts:
     

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