Heidelberg SXS Shotgun?

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  • Derwood

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 2, 2011
    1,075
    DC area
    Hi- I recently got very lucky and inherited a collection from a relative who passed away. I am trying to understand each piece and get a ballpark estimate of the value for insurance purposes. Any help is very much appreciated. I will do my best to post clear and detailed photos. Thanks!

    This beautifully engraved hammer shotgun says on the top of the barrel KARL SRBA BÜCHSENMACHER, HEIDELBERG. I’m guessing that means the city in what is now Germany.

    Carved into the stock is someone’s name...I’m assuming a previous owner.

    There are leaves engraved all over it along with what looks like some sort of European stag/elk type deer on one side and and a small dog on point, and a rabbit/hare on the bottom of the trigger guard.

    The stock has a cheek rest for a right handed shooter and checkering around the grip.

    It’s smaller than a 16 gauge and I don’t have any 20 or 28 shells to check...but I think it’s either 20 or 28 unless it’s an unusual European gauge.
     

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    Dovk0802

    Active Member
    Sep 20, 2017
    255
    DC
    Does the breech open? If you have a micrometer, the rim of a 20g should be about 0.76" and a 28ga 0.68". If you don't have one, a dime will fit in a 20 (the rim not the chamber) but not a 28. 24ga would fall in between. Smaller than a 28ga is the 32ga. Other than .410 and 9mm, which is a rimfire, those are the standard European shell choices.
    If it won't open, bore diameter for 20ga is about & 0.6" & for 28ga is about 0.55". Of course that can vary a lot depending on choke, wear, damage or alteration. Also, keep in mind that the bore might not be circular.
    If you can take the barrels off, look for any other markings.
    Hope that helps
     

    Derwood

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 2, 2011
    1,075
    DC area
    Yes, the breach opens. A dime barely fits in and will not fall down the barrel. So maybe that means it’s a 20? Here is a picture.

    One of the firing pins falls forward sometimes making it hard to open the breach unless I push the pin back with a knife blade. I would love to fire this thing if possible after seeing a gunsmith for a safety check. Thanks!
     

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    traveller

    The one with two L
    Nov 26, 2010
    18,259
    variable
    I wouldnt fire this until you have a valuation that isnt from a couple of guys on the internet.

    What I can find this gun dealer / gunsmith was in operation just before WW1 in Heidelberg. Name sounds czech. Shows up as accredited supplier to the austrian crown.
     

    Dovk0802

    Active Member
    Sep 20, 2017
    255
    DC
    Yes it's a 20. On a modern gun a dime shouldn't enter the chamber. It could be that it's still within spec just a bit looser, particularly with paper hulls. However, it could be eroded. The firing pin isn't really a safety issue, it'll just eventually break. While the firing pin spring could be broken/missing, it could just need a cleaning. You might want to get a set of snap caps which will also help. Regardless, a check by someone with gauges and knows what they're looking at is definitely a good idea before firing. Assuming it checks out, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it with the appropriate load (BP/smokeless, also confirm the chamber length). No matter what the value of the gun, in it's condition shooting it with the appropriate ammo will not affect its value.
     

    Derwood

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 2, 2011
    1,075
    DC area
    Thank you all for the help! I will post on the shotgun site too.

    In any case, I am going to need to have it looked at by a pro. Can you recommend anyone? I am in NOVA but can drive a few hours if needed to see the right person.
     

    Derwood

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 2, 2011
    1,075
    DC area
    I'm just about to post on shotgun world. Here are some additional photos of the underside of the barrel. Hopefully you can see some of the proof marks. There may be more but I don't know how to remove the barrel/hand guard...any advice? I don't want to mess around and break something but I'm sure there is a simple trick to get the barrel away from the stock.
     

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    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    So, it's a Lefaucheux action. To remove the forearm, there should be a screw in the wood beneath the lever. Barring that, it may require tapping the hinge-pin out. Shotgunworld has some info here on a pinfire version here: https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=431447

    You may find more info here as well (warning, the page seems to think that they're still in the late 90s and auto-plays music) http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/

    The doublegunshop.com BBS is another good source of reference on these very old guns. This is likely pre-1900 as the Lefaucheux action fell out of favor to top-lever releases by then.
     

    Derwood

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 2, 2011
    1,075
    DC area
    I was able to separate it by removing the wedge pin. I wiped it down completely with some Bailstol to get the grime off that accumulated in long term storage. Hope that was ok. Here are better pictures of the marks. Do these marks mean anything to you? Thanks!
     

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    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    The "Crown over B" on the water-table means that that the gun was actually produced outside of Germany. The "Crown-over-U" is the final proofing and examination mark. "Crown-over-S" on the barrels is the shotgun proof. See if you can find a "Crown-Over-N" on there for nitro proofing. If not, it's BP only.

    The rest of the marks are too hard for me to make out from the pictures.

    The action was likely made outside of Germany. Likely Belgian in origin, hence the foreign production proof on the water-table. The barrels may have been made in Germany, but I can't fully tell. The action and barrels were then fully finished by the gunmaker in Germany along with any engraving or embelishments.
     

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    Derwood

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 2, 2011
    1,075
    DC area
    Thanks again for all the info.

    I cleaned the proof marked surfaces a little more with Balistol and a tooth brush, and took new photos. I also drew a diagram of what I’m seeing when I look closely in case that helps. I am artistically challenged as you can see but I think that might help with the decoding.

    I don’t see the swirl pattern that I associate with Damascus steel but I’m no expert. I’ll get some pictures in the sunlight later.

    On barrel I see German proofs:
    *Proof for Choke Barrels
    *1st Proof
    *2nd Proof and Examination
    *Proof for Shot Guns


    Maybe the Budapest mark next to the shotgun and choke mark, and above the 2nd examination mark? I had a really hard time seeing that thing and drew it as best as I could make out.

    On the receiver I see:
    *2nd Proof and Examination (2)
    *Proof for Guns Which are Only Tested Once (Foreign Arms)
    *1st Proof

    Does the choke mark on only one side mean that barrel is modified and the other is full?

    Not sure what 19 means...20 I assume means 20 gauge.d

    In between the barrels are the numbers:
    4.05
    1011
    and some letters...I drew it as I saw it. Maybe KH, KI, HI, HL, KL...hard to tell.
     

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    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    I think your "Crown over V" (left side of drawing, right side for shooter) is a lightly struck "Crown over W" meaning both barrels are choked.

    19 is likely the degree of constriction or some similar measurement.

    After some looking, here's what I've found out about Karl Srba.

    The full translation of what is on the rib is "Karl Srba, Gunsmith, Heidelberg"

    Srba had a gunsmithing shop at 65 Hauptstrasse, Heidelberg, Germany, and was in the trade from at least 1896 through 1925 and likely earlier. We know that he owned the building located at 2 Theaterstrasse in Heidelberg and lived there in 1916 from records. This was only about 2 blocks away from the shop at 65 Haupstrasse. His store is now an Ecco Shoes outlet and his home is now a Cocktail Cafe Regie (basically a typical restaurant and bar like you'd see in any major city). His company changed names in 1937 and was owned by his successor (likely his son) into the post-war years but has since closed.

    There are several examples of arms with Srba's name on them and Heidelberg. My understanding is that gun-makers were split into two distinct categories in Germany in the late 19th and early 20th centuries where sporting arms were concerned. There were a very few who concentrated on making the best components possible while the more common route was to be someone who selected those components and then put them together into a working arm. Think of them as the custom AR builders of today. They don't forge lowers, actually build parts, or bore barrels, but they do know what the best components are and are able to put them together and make any necessary adjustments or modifications to make them work well and look good.

    The other examples range from A&D-style boxlock actions to heavily embellished single-shot Schutzen target rifles. It certainly seems that he did finer work during his time. He's also mentioned as specializing in target loads in some materials apparently.

    This would explain the foreign-gun German proof along with all the final proof marks. That would also put your guess about the Budapest proofs on the barrels into the realm of possibility. He possibly sourced the barrels from the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the action from somewhere else. He'd have then mated the two together, either used bespoke hardware or purchased those pieces from yet another manufacturer, had the engraving done (or done it himself), and made and fitted the stock. Again, per my earlier post, very similar to the way the Belgian and French guild-guns were made.

    The Lefaucheux action is the headscratcher here. Lefaucheux started selling his pinfire guns with this particular action sometime around 1836. By 1860 you have the Westley Richards top-lever design which was improved upon by Greener in 1865 giving us the most common action we see today. The Lefaucheux underlever continued to hang on in small numbers until WWII apparently, but by and large, it fell out of favor as soon as the Richards and Greener patents expired. We also know that the Lefaucheux system was produced in both pinfire and centerfire systems. It is entirely possible that the barrels don't actually match the original action. It was not uncommon with the advent of fluid steel barrels for owners of fine shotguns to have a new set of steel barrels made for the new smokeless propellants that came out. Either this is the case, or someone had a penchant for the Lefaucheux action and ordered this bespoke piece sometime after the turn of the century.
     

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