Don't bother with Gunslinger's in Berryville, VA

ohen cepel · Sep 20, 2014

Stopped in there today to see what they had.

They had a CZ-82 for sale but refused to take my C&R for it. Won't stop in again and will tell others to not bother. Overpriced ammo and an ignorant staff who doesn't know federal law.

Small shops keep closing up yet these guys let a sale walk since they wouldn't accept an C&R for a C&R pistol. Fully legal as you guys here know.

Yes, it is their right and it's my right to never set foot in there again and to discourage others from wasting their time with them.

Streetgang · Sep 20, 2014

Fair enough...
Did they give a reason?
No wait, let me guess.... You are from Maryland?

outrider58 · Sep 20, 2014

Mmhm. DGSOS. D*ck head gun shop owners syndrome.

thomfantomas · Sep 20, 2014

thats sad and not the America we want it to be . due to their lack of knowledge and rules majority of us must feel alienated only because we're from this shit hole.

ohen cepel · Sep 20, 2014

No, my state of record never came up. They simply didn't want to take a C&R license. Guy wanted to "run it up" (I guess that means the std NICS process) but I told him I was from out of state so it had to be on my C&R or I couldn't do it.

They will blather on when they go under about whatever reason they can dream up. However, to not conduct legal (and extremely simple) sales when possible just slams one's future in the gun business into the ground in my mind.

I travel by that town often, was excited to see a new shop in the area and may have spent a lot of money there in the future. However, now, I will not step foot in the place again. I can only imagine what other BS they would dream up if I wanted to buy ammo or a fully legal shotgun.........

I know, their shop, their rules. Also, my money, my choices.

K31 · Sep 21, 2014

Actually. you should encourage people with C&Rs to visit them and present their licenses for purchases. Maybe he'll get the message.

Machodoc · Sep 21, 2014

ohen cepel said:
No, my state of record never came up. They simply didn't want to take a C&R license. Guy wanted to "run it up" (I guess that means the std NICS process) but I told him I was from out of state so it had to be on my C&R or I couldn't do it.

I'm not sure what the issue is. I see this sort of thing discussed fairly often here--especially in terms of someone from MD buying at a VA gun show.

If you are from MD, and buying a C&R eligible handgun out of state, it doesn't matter whether it's "bought on your C&R" or not. You buy the gun, take it home, and enter it in your Bound Book. It becomes a C&R-eligible firearm purchased and entered by you under the umbrella of your license. It "goes on your license" when you enter it in your bound book.

Maryland never sees the purchase records from a VA dealer, so they don't know if you bought it with your C&R license, had it go through a NICS check, were given it by a relative, or you got it from Billy Bob out of the back of his truck. The only difference here is that you spend 5 minutes of your time filling out a couple of forms, wait a few minutes for the NICS check to go through, and maybe pay $2 for that check (if they charge you at all ... some do and some don't).

The advantage to an out-of-state dealer selling you something "on your license" is that it can be shipped directly to you without your having to pay transfer fees and jump through Maryland's other hoops. You legally buy a C&R firearm out-of-state, no matter the process ... you take it home and put it into your Bound Book within two days ... it's then "on your license". You could always take your Bound Book with you, and enter it before you came back into MD, if Maryland truly has some requirement that it be "on your license" before it comes back into the state.

ohen cepel · Sep 21, 2014

Machodoc said:
I'm not sure what the issue is. I see this sort of thing discussed fairly often here--especially in terms of someone from MD buying at a VA gun show.

If you are from MD, and buying a C&R eligible handgun out of state, it doesn't matter whether it's "bought on your C&R" or not. You buy the gun, take it home, and enter it in your Bound Book. It becomes a C&R-eligible firearm purchased and entered by you under the umbrella of your license. It "goes on your license" when you enter it in your bound book.

Maryland never sees the purchase records from a VA dealer, so they don't know if you bought it with your C&R license, had it go through a NICS check, were given it by a relative, or you got it from Billy Bob out of the back of his truck. The only difference here is that you spend 5 minutes of your time filling out a couple of forms, wait a few minutes for the NICS check to go through, and maybe pay $2 for that check (if they charge you at all ... some do and some don't).

The advantage to an out-of-state dealer selling you something "on your license" is that it can be shipped directly to you without your having to pay transfer fees and jump through Maryland's other hoops. You legally buy a C&R firearm out-of-state, no matter the process ... you take it home and put it into your Bound Book within two days ... it's then "on your license". You could always take your Bound Book with you, and enter it before you came back into MD, if Maryland truly has some requirement that it be "on your license" before it comes back into the state.

Can you buy a handgun out of state? I didn't think you could without sending it to a md FFL. Do I have that wrong?

rseymorejr · Sep 21, 2014

ohen cepel said:
Can you buy a handgun out of state? I didn't think you could without sending it to a md FFL. Do I have that wrong?

Any handgun would have to go through a Maryland FFL unless it was bought with a C&R License.

Any rifle/shotgun could be purchased with a NICS check, by anyone.

Mark75H · Sep 21, 2014

rseymorejr said:
Any handgun would have to go through a Maryland FFL unless it was bought with a C&R License.

Any rifle/shotgun could be purchased with a NICS check, by anyone.

Providing said rifle/shotgun is legal in both states

Machodoc · Sep 21, 2014

ohen cepel said:
Can you buy a handgun out of state? I didn't think you could without sending it to a md FFL. Do I have that wrong?

rseymorejr said:
Any handgun would have to go through a Maryland FFL unless it was bought with a C&R License.

Any rifle/shotgun could be purchased with a NICS check, by anyone.

I may have this wrong, because I don't understand the MD laws. I'm just going by how the processes work from the C&R standpoint. It's a federal license, as we all know, and not a state license.

I don't know what this stuff is about a MD citizen buying a handgun out-of-state "with a C&R license". All of the following assumes a legitimate sale of a C&R firearm in which the firearm is legal in both MD and the state where the sale takes place ....

If a MD citizen goes to Virginia, for example, and buys a C$R eligible handgun from a FFL dealer who recognizes his C$R license, the buyer goes home with the gun, is required to log it into his Bound Book within 48 hours (BATFE regs), and then the handgun is "on his license". The VA FFL, in turn, logs the gun out of his own Bound Book as being sold to the C$R holder. Unless the VA dealer is uncomfortable with the use of the C&R (ignorance, paranoia, or whatever reason), all it does is save having to go through the step of running a VIRGINIA state check through NICS.

There's no addition of the transaction to some special database. No notification of the transaction, or how it was carried out, is sent to MD.

By the same token, if the MD citizen goes to VA and buys a handgun that's eligible as a C$R firearm, but the dealer makes him go through a NICS check, the dealer has the MD citizen fill out two forms, then "calls" (usually enters into a computer link) the VIRGINIA State Police office that handles NICS checks, gets a response from VIRGINIA that the person passed that check, then the seller logs the firearm out to the buyer in his Bound Book.

In this case, again the buyer goes home with the gun, is required to log it into his Bound book withing 48 hours (BATFE regs), and then the handgun is "on his license". The VA FFL, in turn, logs the gun out of his own Bound Book as being sold to the guy who filled out the forms for, and passed, the NICS check.

Again, say a MD citizen goes to a PA auction and buys a C&R legal (both states) handgun there. The auction recognizes his license and transfers the gun to him. They then log the gun out of their Bound Book as having gone to the buyer, using the C$R license information for the buyer. This makes things legal for the seller in PA (or the one in VA). The firearm becomes, by federal law, "under the license" of the C&R holder when the buyer logs it in (within 48 hours).

OK ... let's say MD citizen is in Virginia on vacation, strikes up a conversation with a VA resident, and mentions that he collects firearms. The VA resident says that he's got his grandpa's old Army 1911, and would be glad to get $500 for it because he doesn't ever use it. By VA law, the guy can just sell it to the MD resident. By fed law, the buyer has to get his DL info, so that he can enter it into his Bound Book. He does that. The sale is made, and he enters the sale into his Bound Book within the required 48 hours.

In none of these legal sales is ANY reporting information sent to the state of MD! The MD buyer puts the purchases onto his C&R license by legally entering the purchase into his Bound Book. At that point, it's in his book as a legitimate C&R and all he has to do is transport it home in a manner that MD considers to be legal.

That's how I understand it, anyway. MD doesn't have any roving secret police who go out to other states' gun stores and wait for MD residents to buy C&R guns. If it's a legal sale in the other state, and the gun is legal as a C&R in MD, and it's logged in as a C&R to the license holder's Bound Book within 48 hours, it comes into MD under the holder's license any way you look at it. My point is that it isn't how the sale is conducted that puts the sale onto the buyer's C&R license. It's a federal license, and by federal law it goes onto the buyer's license when it's properly logged.

clandestine · Sep 21, 2014

A VA FFL trying to run a Handgun on a MD Resident via NICS will get denied. NICS will not approve it.

rseymorejr · Sep 21, 2014

Machodoc said:
I may have this wrong, because I don't understand the MD laws. I'm just going by how the processes work from the C&R standpoint. It's a federal license, as we all know, and not a state license.

I don't know what this stuff is about a MD citizen buying a handgun out-of-state "with a C&R license". All of the following assumes a legitimate sale of a C&R firearm in which the firearm is legal in both MD and the state where the sale takes place ....

If a MD citizen goes to Virginia, for example, and buys a C$R eligible handgun from a FFL dealer who recognizes his C$R license, the buyer goes home with the gun, is required to log it into his Bound Book within 48 hours (BATFE regs), and then the handgun is "on his license". The VA FFL, in turn, logs the gun out of his own Bound Book as being sold to the C$R holder. Unless the VA dealer is uncomfortable with the use of the C&R (ignorance, paranoia, or whatever reason), all it does is save having to go through the step of running a VIRGINIA state check through NICS.

There's no addition of the transaction to some special database. No notification of the transaction, or how it was carried out, is sent to MD.

By the same token, if the MD citizen goes to VA and buys a handgun that's eligible as a C$R firearm, but the dealer makes him go through a NICS check, the dealer has the MD citizen fill out two forms, then "calls" (usually enters into a computer link) the VIRGINIA State Police office that handles NICS checks, gets a response from VIRGINIA that the person passed that check, then the seller logs the firearm out to the buyer in his Bound Book.

In this case, again the buyer goes home with the gun, is required to log it into his Bound book withing 48 hours (BATFE regs), and then the handgun is "on his license". The VA FFL, in turn, logs the gun out of his own Bound Book as being sold to the guy who filled out the forms for, and passed, the NICS check.

Again, say a MD citizen goes to a PA auction and buys a C&R legal (both states) handgun there. The auction recognizes his license and transfers the gun to him. They then log the gun out of their Bound Book as having gone to the buyer, using the C$R license information for the buyer. This makes things legal for the seller in PA (or the one in VA). The firearm becomes, by federal law, "under the license" of the C&R holder when the buyer logs it in (within 48 hours).

OK ... let's say MD citizen is in Virginia on vacation, strikes up a conversation with a VA resident, and mentions that he collects firearms. The VA resident says that he's got his grandpa's old Army 1911, and would be glad to get $500 for it because he doesn't ever use it. By VA law, the guy can just sell it to the MD resident. By fed law, the buyer has to get his DL info, so that he can enter it into his Bound Book. He does that. The sale is made, and he enters the sale into his Bound Book within the required 48 hours.

In none of these legal sales is ANY reporting information sent to the state of MD! The MD buyer puts the purchases onto his C&R license by legally entering the purchase into his Bound Book. At that point, it's in his book as a legitimate C&R and all he has to do is transport it home in a manner that MD considers to be legal.

That's how I understand it, anyway. MD doesn't have any roving secret police who go out to other states' gun stores and wait for MD residents to buy C&R guns. If it's a legal sale in the other state, and the gun is legal as a C&R in MD, and it's logged in as a C&R to the license holder's Bound Book within 48 hours, it comes into MD under the holder's license any way you look at it. My point is that it isn't how the sale is conducted that puts the sale onto the buyer's C&R license. It's a federal license, and by federal law it goes onto the buyer's license when it's properly logged.

I think that we are on the same page here.
A Maryland resident should be able to travel anywhere in the country and buy a C&R eligible handgun face to face. Just sign a copy of his C&R license and give it to the seller, no NICS, no waiting period, no transfer fees. Or he should be able to order any C&R eligible handgun and have it shipped. The only place a C&R license doesn't do any good is with transactions within Maryland.
My statement about the handgun needing to go through a MD FFL was assuming the purchaser was not a C&R holder.

Machodoc · Sep 21, 2014

clandestine said:
A VA FFL trying to run a Handgun on a MD Resident via NICS will get denied. NICS will not approve it.

That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. It must just be MD residents, then, because I've seen NC residents cleared on a VA NICS check for a modern handgun.

Likewise, I had to do a NC NICS check when I bought a firearm on an out of state trip last year, and the seller (LGS) similarly wasn't familiar with an FFL/03, and was afraid to accept it. It all worked out, and I think I had to pay an extra $5 for it.

ohen cepel · Sep 21, 2014

If there is an exception to the federal law to buy handguns out of your state of residence please let me know. I may well be wrong and hope I am.

Machodoc · Sep 21, 2014

ohen cepel said:
If there is an exception to the federal law to buy handguns out of your state of residence please let me know. I may well be wrong and hope I am.

I don't think there's an exception to federal law. I just think that MD laws might not be fully sync'ed with federal law.

I'll try to contact a volume dealer in VA that I know--hopefully this week. He'll be able to tell me how it works.

Melnic · Sep 21, 2014

can an FFL dealer do an FFL lookup to see if an FFL number is valid and not faked?
I thought I saw the guys at a shop in PA doing a lookup on the computer.

CasualObserver · Sep 21, 2014

ohen cepel said:
No, my state of record never came up. They simply didn't want to take a C&R license. Guy wanted to "run it up" (I guess that means the std NICS process) but I told him I was from out of state so it had to be on my C&R or I couldn't do it.

They will blather on when they go under about whatever reason they can dream up. However, to not conduct legal (and extremely simple) sales when possible just slams one's future in the gun business into the ground in my mind.

I travel by that town often, was excited to see a new shop in the area and may have spent a lot of money there in the future. However, now, I will not step foot in the place again. I can only imagine what other BS they would dream up if I wanted to buy ammo or a fully legal shotgun.........

I know, their shop, their rules. Also, my money, my choices.

So I was told by a shop one time that they wouldn't honor my FFL03 C&R because they couldn't verify it like other FFLs via the ATF online eZCheck system. Like they were afraid of someone giving them a doctored up C&R FFL. Kinda made sense.... here is the link he was referring to I believe.... https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

Machodoc · Sep 21, 2014

CasualObserver said:
So I was told by a shop one time that they wouldn't honor my FFL03 C&R because they couldn't verify it like other FFLs via the ATF online eZCheck system. Like they were afraid of someone giving them a doctored up C&R FFL. Kinda made sense.... here is the link he was referring to I believe.... https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

"FFL eZ Check does not validate Type 03 (Collectors of Curios and Relics) and Type 06 (Manufacturer of Ammunition) licenses."

Abulg1972 · Sep 22, 2014

Machodoc said:
By the same token, if the MD citizen goes to VA and buys a handgun that's eligible as a C$R firearm, but the dealer makes him go through a NICS check, the dealer has the MD citizen fill out two forms, then "calls" (usually enters into a computer link) the VIRGINIA State Police office that handles NICS checks, gets a response from VIRGINIA that the person passed that check, then the seller logs the firearm out to the buyer in his Bound Book.

In this case, again the buyer goes home with the gun, is required to log it into his Bound book withing 48 hours (BATFE regs), and then the handgun is "on his license". The VA FFL, in turn, logs the gun out of his own Bound Book as being sold to the guy who filled out the forms for, and passed, the NICS check.

I believe that this is what the law SAYS and how it SHOULD go down, but I don't think this is the actual outcome where the VA FFL refuses to honor the C&R. In fact, I think it's 01 FFLs refusing to honor the C&R that has perpetuated this myth that "you must use a MD 01". Remember that, per Section 922(a)(3) of the GCA, a sale by a resident of one state to a resident of another state must comply with the laws of both states UNLESS the sale is conducted between licensed manufacturers, dealers, importers or collectors (which we are as 03 holders . . .). If the VA FFL refuses to recognize your licensed collector status, then there's a 100% chance he's going to require that the handgun be shipped to a MD 01 FFL because Maryland law says that unlicensed Joe Smith can only purchase a regulated firearm if he jumps through 47 hoops and waits 7 days. I believe that this happens for two reasons: (i) most 01 FFLs don't understand what the hell an 03 FFL is and aren't going to try to learn it; and (ii) those 01s who do know what it is believe we are lesser beings and that only an 01 like them should get to handle transfers (and make a fee). I'm not saying this is the case across the board - in fact, I have no facts to back up that theory (other than that my LGS is greedy as hell).

Don't bother with Gunslinger's in Berryville, VA

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