Faxon 308 barrel question

DaemonAssassin · Apr 21, 2016

Does anybody know if this barrel could be considered "match"? It isn't labelled as such on their site, but due to the 5R rifling, I'm thinking it might be a match barrel. What does the braintrust think?

http://faxonfirearms.com/18-5r-rifling-medium-tapered-308-win-mid-length-4150-qpq/

BradMacc82 · Apr 21, 2016

The 'Match' designation should apply to the chamber dimensions, not the style of rifling used.

IIRC, most 'Match' chambers are set to more of the minimum headspace and slightly larger freebore to accommodate rounds loaded beyond typical cartridge lengths.

Example: A standard .260 Rem chamber has a freebore of .118, while the 260 Rem 'Match' chamber has a freebore of .160 - that extra freebore length allows a longer seated depth of the round.

Sticky · Apr 21, 2016

BradMacc82 said:
The 'Match' designation should apply to the chamber dimensions, not the style of rifling used.

IIRC, most 'Match' chambers are set to more of the minimum headspace and slightly larger freebore to accommodate rounds loaded beyond typical cartridge lengths.

Example: A standard .260 Rem chamber has a freebore of .118, while the 260 Rem 'Match' chamber has a freebore of .160 - that extra freebore length allows a longer seated depth of the round.

Agreed... though some tout the 5R rifling as a benefit, adding to accuracy. I have a 308bbl from BHW that is 5R rifled, but honestly, I have not really had a chance to really put it to the test.. hopefully soon! I will compare it to a longer barreled JP match barrel, though the JP is a 22" and the BHW is an 18".

BradMacc82 · Apr 21, 2016

I don't have any experience with the 5R rifling, so I couldn't say if it is any more accurate than cut, broach, button or polygonal rifling.

Sticky · Apr 21, 2016

BradMacc82 said:
I don't have any experience with the 5R rifling, so I couldn't say if it is any more accurate than cut, broach, button or polygonal rifling.

5R is a polygonal rifling. Essentially it is a 5 groove poly rifled barrel, which some claim to be more accurate... it's a debate I have yet to see a defined winner in, but... I can be swayed, eventually.. lol

I understand the benefits in a pistol barrel, like a Glock, but... I am not yet convinced that it's any more accurate or beneficial in a rifle barrel. Some say don't shoot lead in poly rifled handguns, but I know many that shoot cast boolits in a standard Glock barrel too..

It is pretty common in some barrels like the HK and Lothar, so it can't be all that bad.

BradMacc82 · Apr 21, 2016

OK, didn't know 5R was polygonal. Learned something new.

Then I have to amend my previous statement some, 'I only have limited experience with polygonal rifling, with my Noveske barrels. And my HK USP.'

Sticky · Apr 21, 2016

It is commonly used on handgun bbls in a hammer forged process, as the hammer forging work hardens the inner surfaces of the barrel. Accuracy suffers a little, I think, in a longer rifle barrel when it's hammer forged because of the stresses and stretching of the barrel with hammer forging, but it is more durable. Don't think all 5R barrels are necessarily hammer forged though, but it is less costly of a method for cranking out good pistol length barrels.

DaemonAssassin · Apr 22, 2016

Faxon does not make a match barrel.

Boss94 · Apr 22, 2016

Maybe I'm missing reading it but except for tight chamber. I don't see where it says match ?? I have 3 of those barrels on ar10s . They shoot very nice and I'd buy them again!

DaemonAssassin · Apr 22, 2016

Boss94 said:
Maybe I'm missing reading it but except for tight chamber. I don't see where it says match ?? I have 3 of those barrels on ar10s . They shoot very nice and I'd buy them again!

Sometimes a company will say tight tolerance, but won't say it is match. Other companies will say it is match. I just wanted to know if it was a match barrel or not, for an upcoming build I have planned.

While I would prefer a match barrel, I don't want it to be bare SS or have an 8-14 week lead time, before it ships. I can live with a non-match barrel for the time being, especially for the price of that Faxon barrel.

What kind of groups are you getting with your Faxon barrel?

Boss94 · Apr 23, 2016

A bit more than .75 group. But I was still tweeking in the scope. I was happy with it. I have a Loither Walther Match barrel on another AR10 I paid 4 to 5 times more that so far is only slightly better. Also to add I'm not shooting Match ammo .

E.Shell · Apr 24, 2016

One cannot assume any given level of performance exclusively from the design spec "5R". I'll clarify this rifling thing a little:

"Cut" rifling is applied by pulling a cutter, technically called a broach, through the bore.
"Button" rifling is applied by pulling a carbide die, referred to as a "button", through the bore.
"Hammer Forged" rifling is applied by impaction (hammering) and pressing the bore around a mandrel that is shaped like the inside of the finished bore.

Any of these methods can be used to apply "5R" style rifling, in exactly the same way traditional rifling is applied using these tools. The quality of a 5R style rifled barrel can vary just as much as any other rifling type too. It can be nicely done with good steel, or it can be done poorly with lesser materials, yet it will still be "5R" style rifling.

5R rifling is not truly polygonal. The bore is round and the rifling is a well defined system of lands and grooves. "5R" is today's "hot button" in marketing terminology and does not necessarily imply any special barrel characteristics or any level of precision, it's just another way of doing it that has theoretical advantages that usually ASSume "all other things equal". Of course, all other things are seldom equal.

The "5R" descriptor conveys information on two design components of the rifling:

1) The "5" denotes five lands and grooves. The design principle revolves around reduced bullet deformation as it engraves into the odd number of lands, and in this respect it is identical to the old three groove Obermeyer barrels that were well known for their precision.

The idea is that with an odd number of lands, the bullet isn't compressed between two opposing lands as it would be with an even number of lands. As the land engraves one side of the bullet, there is a groove on the opposite side and the bullet is not pinched between two lands. In theory, this reduces stress and deformation of the bullet during a very critical time in its service life, thus promoting precision.

2) The "R" indicates that the roots of the lands and upper corners are cut with slight radius, rather than the traditional method that leaves the top and bottom edges of the land square and sharp.

Just as in traditional rifling, the tops of the lands are on a slightly concave radius that matches bore diameter, and the bottoms of the grooves are on a slight radius that matches groove diameter. In the typical .30 caliber rifle, bore diameter = .300" and groove diameter = .308". Both surfaces are concentric with the bore and form a continuous radius, not a polygon. The actual "R" denotes the very tiny radius occurs where the lands meet the grooves and at the tops of the lands, not the shape of the bore itself.

The idea here is twofold:

a) The radius corners of the top of the lands engrave with less effort, and results, in theory, in less jacket damage and thus a more precise bullet is delivered.

b) The radius corners at the bottom of the lands tend to collect and hold less fouling, because there isn't this sharp little corner to trap it and make it difficult to remove.

It is a great design, but it is not polygonal and does not resemble polygonal pistol rifling when viewed through a bore scope, nor does it guarantee any particular level of precision.

The "match" designation is quite overused. It would pay us to remember that descriptions we read in factory literature and most gun rags is nothing more than marketing copy, designed to dance on the bitter edge between truth and lie. According to marketing, she's not "fat" at all, she's "Rubenesque", but you still can't get your arms around her. Outside of benchrest competition, almost any well made barrel is capable of match winning precision if it is properly chambered and installed. Things like interior surface finish, straightness and stress relief set apart the workmanship aspect of barrel production, while foreign material inclusions, consistent alloying and correct proportional relationships of alloying additives define material character and quality. Certain manufacturers make decent barrels with good materials and they become known for their "match grade" performance, while other makers spend less effort on production precision and use cheaper materials and they become known for "hunting accuracy" products.

The most obvious and tangible advantage of 5R rifling is a reduction in fouling, leading to a longer period of time that the barrel can be shot without fouling detracting from precision, but even this can be questionable.

The interior finish of the typical Remington 700 bore, even a magical "5R" bore, is rough and ugly. There is no other way to describe it. When viewed through a bore scope, one can see radial grooves across the surface of the lands and scratch marks throughout. When I view the interior of a Krieger barrel, it is mirror smooth, end to end and one is immediately impressed with the smoothness and consistent finish throughout. It is downright pretty. While we can acknowledge there is about a $300 difference in production costs between a Rem and a Krieger barrel, we cannot ignore that the claims and assumptions for the advantages of 5R rifling always seem to supersede any other parameters. I would suggest that the traditionally rifled Krieger will foul far less and shoot better than the 5R rifled Remington.

The other theoretical advantage, less bullet deformation = greater precision, is much harder to prove. The problem is that variability between barrels and variability between chambering techniques and variability between mounting platforms will completely obscure any differences in barrel precision attributed to rifling styles. I can provide two easy examples of this being a mostly theoretical argument:

1) The Remington 5R .308 rifle is a 24" stainless steel barrel with 5R rifling and their .308 PSS model is a 26" chrome-moly steel barrel with traditional (6 groove/square root) rifling. Further, the Remington 5R has an "optimized" (according to marketing) twist rate of 1:11.75", for 175 grain BTHP bullets, while the PSS has a twist rate of 1:12".

Both of these rifles shoot extremely well and both will typically deliver groups of less than 1/2" at 100 yards with decent factory match ammo. I would base my preference between these two rifles on desired finish - stainless or matte blue, not rifling style.

2) Many/most winning benchrest barrels do not utilize 5R rifling, which speaks volumes. Short range benchrest is intensely competitive and matches are won and lost in thousandths of an inch. If there was a clear, repeatable advantage, an aspiring competitor would be foolish to use anything else.

I personally used to micro-manage barrel selection and would agonize over specifications and analyze equipment reports from the big matches. I have come to realize that as long as the barrel is of decent (not necessarily premium) quality, the method in which the barrel is chambered is hugely important. I am now much more concerned with who does the work vs the barrel brand or rifling style we would use.

DaemonAssassin · Apr 24, 2016

E.Shell said:
One cannot assume any given level of performance exclusively from the design spec "5R". I'll clarify this rifling thing a little:

"Cut" rifling is applied by pulling a cutter, technically called a broach, through the bore.
"Button" rifling is applied by pulling a carbide die, referred to as a "button", through the bore.
"Hammer Forged" rifling is applied by impaction (hammering) and pressing the bore around a mandrel that is shaped like the inside of the finished bore.

Any of these methods can be used to apply "5R" style rifling, in exactly the same way traditional rifling is applied using these tools. The quality of a 5R style rifled barrel can vary just as much as any other rifling type too. It can be nicely done with good steel, or it can be done poorly with lesser materials, yet it will still be "5R" style rifling.

5R rifling is not truly polygonal. The bore is round and the rifling is a well defined system of lands and grooves. "5R" is today's "hot button" in marketing terminology and does not necessarily imply any special barrel characteristics or any level of precision, it's just another way of doing it that has theoretical advantages that usually ASSume "all other things equal". Of course, all other things are seldom equal.

The "5R" descriptor conveys information on two design components of the rifling:

1) The "5" denotes five lands and grooves. The design principle revolves around reduced bullet deformation as it engraves into the odd number of lands, and in this respect it is identical to the old three groove Obermeyer barrels that were well known for their precision.

The idea is that with an odd number of lands, the bullet isn't compressed between two opposing lands as it would be with an even number of lands. As the land engraves one side of the bullet, there is a groove on the opposite side and the bullet is not pinched between two lands. In theory, this reduces stress and deformation of the bullet during a very critical time in its service life, thus promoting precision.

2) The "R" indicates that the roots of the lands and upper corners are cut with slight radius, rather than the traditional method that leaves the top and bottom edges of the land square and sharp.

Just as in traditional rifling, the tops of the lands are on a slightly concave radius that matches bore diameter, and the bottoms of the grooves are on a slight radius that matches groove diameter. In the typical .30 caliber rifle, bore diameter = .300" and groove diameter = .308". Both surfaces are concentric with the bore and form a continuous radius, not a polygon. The actual "R" denotes the very tiny radius occurs where the lands meet the grooves and at the tops of the lands, not the shape of the bore itself.

The idea here is twofold:

a) The radius corners of the top of the lands engrave with less effort, and results, in theory, in less jacket damage and thus a more precise bullet is delivered.

b) The radius corners at the bottom of the lands tend to collect and hold less fouling, because there isn't this sharp little corner to trap it and make it difficult to remove.

It is a great design, but it is not polygonal and does not resemble polygonal pistol rifling when viewed through a bore scope, nor does it guarantee any particular level of precision.

The "match" designation is quite overused. It would pay us to remember that descriptions we read in factory literature and most gun rags is nothing more than marketing copy, designed to dance on the bitter edge between truth and lie. According to marketing, she's not "fat" at all, she's "Rubenesque", but you still can't get your arms around her. Outside of benchrest competition, almost any well made barrel is capable of match winning precision if it is properly chambered and installed. Things like interior surface finish, straightness and stress relief set apart the workmanship aspect of barrel production, while foreign material inclusions, consistent alloying and correct proportional relationships of alloying additives define material character and quality. Certain manufacturers make decent barrels with good materials and they become known for their "match grade" performance, while other makers spend less effort on production precision and use cheaper materials and they become known for "hunting accuracy" products.

The most obvious and tangible advantage of 5R rifling is a reduction in fouling, leading to a longer period of time that the barrel can be shot without fouling detracting from precision, but even this can be questionable.

The interior finish of the typical Remington 700 bore, even a magical "5R" bore, is rough and ugly. There is no other way to describe it. When viewed through a bore scope, one can see radial grooves across the surface of the lands and scratch marks throughout. When I view the interior of a Krieger barrel, it is mirror smooth, end to end and one is immediately impressed with the smoothness and consistent finish throughout. It is downright pretty. While we can acknowledge there is about a $300 difference in production costs between a Rem and a Krieger barrel, we cannot ignore that the claims and assumptions for the advantages of 5R rifling always seem to supersede any other parameters. I would suggest that the traditionally rifled Krieger will foul far less and shoot better than the 5R rifled Remington.

The other theoretical advantage, less bullet deformation = greater precision, is much harder to prove. The problem is that variability between barrels and variability between chambering techniques and variability between mounting platforms will completely obscure any differences in barrel precision attributed to rifling styles. I can provide two easy examples of this being a mostly theoretical argument:

1) The Remington 5R .308 rifle is a 24" stainless steel barrel with 5R rifling and their .308 PSS model is a 26" chrome-moly steel barrel with traditional (6 groove/square root) rifling. Further, the Remington 5R has an "optimized" (according to marketing) twist rate of 1:11.75", for 175 grain BTHP bullets, while the PSS has a twist rate of 1:12".

Both of these rifles shoot extremely well and both will typically deliver groups of less than 1/2" at 100 yards with decent factory match ammo. I would base my preference between these two rifles on desired finish - stainless or matte blue, not rifling style.

2) Many/most winning benchrest barrels do not utilize 5R rifling, which speaks volumes. Short range benchrest is intensely competitive and matches are won and lost in thousandths of an inch. If there was a clear, repeatable advantage, an aspiring competitor would be foolish to use anything else.

I personally used to micro-manage barrel selection and would agonize over specifications and analyze equipment reports from the big matches. I have come to realize that as long as the barrel is of decent (not necessarily premium) quality, the method in which the barrel is chambered is hugely important. I am now much more concerned with who does the work vs the barrel brand or rifling style we would use.

Whoa. Thanks, E.Shell, that explains a lot about the misconceptions I had.

In your opinion, would that Faxon barrel be sufficient for shooting to say 600+ yards with relatively decent accuracy? I'm not looking for a single hole at that distance, but I can live with 1-1.5 MOA.

E.Shell · Apr 25, 2016

DaemonAssassin said:
...In your opinion, would that Faxon barrel be sufficient for shooting to say 600+ yards with relatively decent accuracy? I'm not looking for a single hole at that distance, but I can live with 1-1.5 MOA.

Sorry, I do not have first hand experience with these barrels and cannot answer your question.

There is not one online review I could find that was meaningful. 50 yard groups with milspec 55 grain ball or SS109 bullets and low power optics tell us nothing. Not one review using a decent scope and match grade ammo, so all we're seeing is the service grade ammunition limitations coupled with the shooters inability to see. We would laugh at the thought of an accuracy test of a Sako TRG with a 1-4x optic and FMJ ammo, yet similar "accuracy reports" are taken seriously when an AR-15 is involved.

I would love to see results with one of these barrels properly installed on an A3 upper, mounted on a lower with a solid stock and good trigger, using with a scope over 10x and some FGMM 69 grain bullets. THEN we may be able to tell what the barrel itself can do.

OrbitalEllipses · Apr 25, 2016

Faxon isn't in the business of making match barrels. According to what I've read, their 5.56 NATO barrels are true 5.56 NATO chambers - they won't make .223 Wylde chambered rifles for commercial sales either (they will private label them, though). Using that data, I wouldn't say their .308WIN barrels are going to be match chambers. I will say their barrels are pleasantly accurate for the value, though I have no experience with their .30cal barrels.

E.Shell said:
I would love to see results with one of these barrels properly installed on an A3 upper, mounted on a lower with a solid stock and good trigger, using with a scope over 10x and some FGMM 69 grain bullets. THEN we may be able to tell what the barrel itself can do.

The 18" barrel I have from them rides in a lightweight upper & lower, but I have access to a NF 2.5-10x scope and fixed stock lower with Geissele trigger. I also have BH Mk262, BH Mk262 seconds, CBC Mk262 clone, IMI Mk262 clone, PPU 75gr, PPu 69gr, IMI 69gr, Remington Match 77gr, and Remington Match 69gr. I'm also a poor shot. :lol:

I also don't really want to pull the NF off my .308 and spend all that time zeroing it again.

Pinecone · Apr 25, 2016

Or, one could just buy a barrel from a maker with a good track record.

OrbitalEllipses · Apr 25, 2016

Pinecone said:
Or, one could just buy a barrel from a maker with a good track record.

It's a question of gains though isn't it? Talking about the 22cal world, I could get a hand-lapped and cut-rifled Kreiger for just under $500. Something similar (button-rifled, not hand-lapped) from Faxon or the like would be a good bit under $300, melonited, and include flutes. A fluted Kreiger is over $600. Is it worth double the cost? Depends who you are and what you do I suppose.

BradMacc82 · Apr 25, 2016

How did we get onto .223/5.56 barrels when the OP was inquiring about Faxon's .308 barrel???

Speed3 · Apr 25, 2016

BradMacc82 said:
How did we get onto .223/5.56 barrels when the OP was inquiring about Faxon's .308 barrel???

I thought the same thing lol.

If I was going to build a .308, I would probably use a bartlein barrel. Buy once/cry once....takes a long time to shoot out a .308 barrel.

DaemonAssassin · Apr 25, 2016

Speed3 said:
I thought the same thing lol.

If I was going to build a .308, I would probably use a bartlein barrel. Buy once/cry once....takes a long time to shoot out a .308 barrel.

Problem is the funding issue, in regards to what I could get past the wifey.

As much as I'd like a Shilen, Bartlein, etc... I can't justify it for a while, if at all because of the financial hit. I don't need 1/4 MOA, I just need to be able to hit 1-1.5 MOA consistently.

And yes I was asking about a 308 AR 10 barrel. Thanks for noticing and getting it back on track, Brad and speed.

Faxon 308 barrel question

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