AGC Action Shooters - Opinions Please

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  • MEGARMS

    KnowNothing
    Jun 3, 2012
    3,843
    Carroll County
    Here is an email we sent to our 3 Gun Shooters yesterday. Wanted to put it here to solicit from feedback from those who were not there yesterday. It is long winded, but so it everything that I write.


    Thank you to everyone who made it out yesterday. We had perfect weather, some good fun, and nobody went home with more holes in them than they arrived with.

    I want to offer a special Thank You to Austin Ceresi who spends hours before each match designing the courses of fire. This task has become especially challenging in recent months as this ammo shortage has started to affect a good number of our regular shooters.

    In an effort to reduce round counts and still keep things fun, Austin has implemented some of these things, among others:

    -Pistol or Shotgun Options
    -Bonus opportunities with no penalties for not engaging
    -Extra Challenging Shots - strong and/or week hand only
    -limited engagement (1 round per target for long range rifle)

    It is incredibly difficult to try and make everyone happy, and personally, I think he did a pretty good job of that yesterday.

    We have gotten lots of verbal feedback, and as expected it is all over the board. Many who have plenty of ammo want to return to normal, pre panic round counts. On the other hand, those who have limited ammo appreciate the new philosophy. There is also those who have plenty of ammo, but realize that shooting at a piece of paper all alone is just not as much fun as action shooting matches with your friends.

    Things are pretty uncertain right now and nobody really has any idea when (if) things will ever get back to normal. If the elections go the wrong way and the liberals clean house in November, then we could be looking at a very long term issue here. If it goes the other way, then we may still be looking at many months/years before things normalize (remember 2013?)

    The only thing we know for certain is that we want to continue to hold monthly 3 Gun, IDPA, and Falling Steel matches. In MY opinion, returning things to normal round counts now would be short sided and could very well cause future match cancellations due to a lack of participation.

    We would like to get your opinions and even better your ideas on what we should do. When offering feedback, please try to keep in mind that the ultimate goal is to continue having matches. Our attendance is already down 20% - 25% and if we lose another 20% - 25%, then it will no longer make sense to run matches EVERY month.

    Thank you for your thoughts and we look forward to seeing everyone again in November.

    Mike
    AGC Action Shooting Chair
     

    Tungsten

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2012
    7,231
    Elkridge, Leftistan
    Lower round count options seem prudent during these times. Now that summer is over maybe all the .22 jamming issues will lessen and perhaps there could be more courses designed for cheaper .22 plinking.
     

    MEGARMS

    KnowNothing
    Jun 3, 2012
    3,843
    Carroll County
    Lower round count options seem prudent during these times. Now that summer is over maybe all the .22 jamming issues will lessen and perhaps there could be more courses designed for cheaper .22 plinking.

    I understand that IDPA will start having a rimfire division soon. Not sure if rimfire is feasible for Three gun or not. I suppose it will have to be if things get bad enough. Thank you for the feedback.
     

    ESP

    Member
    Nov 21, 2012
    66
    Maryland
    I did my 1st Steel match two weeks ago, so my opinion is worth less than the average 2 cents. That being said, the bonus section seems to be the best of both worlds. Less required targets for those being ammo thrifty, and "bonus" targets for those who want more.

    As a side note, since I am just coming into the sport, I did not have a pre-panic stash of ammo. Without the help of a good friend who reloads, I may have waited to get involved. His "sponsorship" and guidance got me to the firing line. Like my friend, everyone I have met has been patient and helpful. That attitude will keep me coming back. Thank you.
     

    hogarth

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2009
    2,504
    Thanks to a rendevous with Ammo Jon many months ago, I remain well-stocked with ammo and will continue to attend IDPA as long as I don't have family schedule conflicts.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    I understand that IDPA will start having a rimfire division soon. Not sure if rimfire is feasible for Three gun or not. I suppose it will have to be if things get bad enough. Thank you for the feedback.
    There is a NFC (Not For Competition) division in IDPA... shouldn't be too hard. Not sure if PS lets you filter them by default out of the overalls or not.

    3GN has rules for rimfires. I would argue that our[1] current setup actually makes it quite advantageous to run them; a 25yd zero is going to get you hits out to about 75, which is the limit of the bays more or less. You'd probably eat a big penalty on a 200yd stage, of course...

    One other consideration is PCC divisions. Some people are short on 223, but still pretty good with 9mm. Again, they'd sort of get shafted on 200yd stages, but they would do alright on the bays.

    [1] Do I get to say "our" now that I've been roped into coaching SASP? :P
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,238
    Montgomery County
    One other consideration is PCC divisions. Some people are short on 223, but still pretty good with 9mm. Again, they'd sort of get shafted on 200yd stages, but they would do alright on the bays.

    This is an interesting topic. I found myself thinking, at the 3Gun in September ... how would I have faired using a PCC through this game? Other than the 200yd range, I'd have been in good shape.

    Now, the next question: can I use a suppressor? Because if it's quieter, it feel less expensive when I'm shooting up ammo :-)
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    This is an interesting topic. I found myself thinking, at the 3Gun in September ... how would I have faired using a PCC through this game? Other than the 200yd range, I'd have been in good shape.
    I mean, you should have kicked ass and taken names, especially if it was PCC+shotgun+pistol. Even just PCC only isn't so hard if your zero is dialed in. This is, of course, why PCCs aren't allowed in the standard divisions.

    Now, the next question: can I use a suppressor? Because if it's quieter, it feel less expensive when I'm shooting up ammo :-)
    You mean in general for carbines, or for PCC in particular? In general, not a huge deal, your average shot timer will pick up the shot if it's held a little closer, and it's only a problem on stages where you finish with a rifle.

    Vis a vis PCC, it depends on how the division implemented. The PCC division in 3GN is literally 100% PCC, and shot timers tend to be wonky with suppressed PCCs, especially when loaded up with subs.
     

    edrod68

    Active Member
    Jun 6, 2013
    664
    Westminster, MD
    I thought the way things were run on Sunday during the 3-Gun match was excellent. It was challenging, and I have no issue with the lower round count as long as it is kept interesting.

    The match this Sunday was possibly the most fun I have had shooting an 3-Gun event so far.
     

    jjones88

    Active Member
    Apr 4, 2013
    568
    Sykesville
    This is an interesting topic. I found myself thinking, at the 3Gun in September ... how would I have faired using a PCC through this game? Other than the 200yd range, I'd have been in good shape.

    Now, the next question: can I use a suppressor? Because if it's quieter, it feel less expensive when I'm shooting up ammo :-)

    You can run a suppressor. Timer picks it up just fine. Though, need to confirm the rules, once it's on it has to stay on during the match.
     

    Art3

    Eqinsu Ocha
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 30, 2015
    13,267
    Harford County
    First off, thank you to Austin for the design and everyone who helped set up. :mdpatriot It seemed like with the barricades, etc. there was a lot more stuff to put out and adjust. It definitely had a little more of an IDPA vibe to it as opposed to our previous wide open blasting away...and I liked that. Even though the round count was down, it still felt like a "full" run each time. :party29:

    Normally, I don't find shooting paper targets very thrilling. However, charging two of them with my Glock in one hand and precious TP in the other was pretty awesome.:gun2:

    I also really liked the pistol/shotgun options.

    Some of the leaning around barrels to make shots made me a little nervous...not just for myself, but other shooters getting precariously off balance with a hot gun. Nobody on my squad fell, but watching for foot faults vs. getting wobbly had me clutching my pearls a couple of times. I absolutely get the idea of making it tricky. As someone who always champions the noobs (maybe because I'm not far removed myself :o), I had a thought: Suppose there was an optional secondary shooting position that offered a straighter shot to the hard to hit targets? Experienced shooters could just stay at the first position and lean, which would be faster. Less confident shooters could engage the easy ones from the first position, then advance to the secondary position that made the hard to hit targets easier to hit. I know that would make course design even more challenging...but I have faith ;)

    Another thought...could we keep the round count reduced for the course, but let those who have ammo to burn run it twice? They'd have to pay for their second run, of course, like doing steel with two guns. Obviously you wouldn't want the roster to fill up with people shooting twice and have to turn away other shooters...but it doesn't sound like that's going to be an issue right now. Maybe you could treat the second run like a waitlist and only open it up after regular registration has closed.

    I know...all my ideas sound like they make things more complicated for the organizers...:shrug: That's all I've got so far...
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Learn to lean with a gun. It's a core skill, like movement with a gun.

    Running it twice is probably not practical from a gear-and-ammo-hauling-logistics standpoint unless they do a 3GN-style PCC division (where PCC is literally your only gun).
     

    MEGARMS

    KnowNothing
    Jun 3, 2012
    3,843
    Carroll County
    There is a NFC (Not For Competition) division in IDPA... shouldn't be too hard. Not sure if PS lets you filter them by default out of the overalls or not.

    3GN has rules for rimfires. I would argue that our[1] current setup actually makes it quite advantageous to run them; a 25yd zero is going to get you hits out to about 75, which is the limit of the bays more or less. You'd probably eat a big penalty on a 200yd stage, of course...

    One other consideration is PCC divisions. Some people are short on 223, but still pretty good with 9mm. Again, they'd sort of get shafted on 200yd stages, but they would do alright on the bays.

    [1] Do I get to say "our" now that I've been roped into coaching SASP? :P

    You get to say our because you bought and AGC Range Badge.
     

    MEGARMS

    KnowNothing
    Jun 3, 2012
    3,843
    Carroll County
    This is an interesting topic. I found myself thinking, at the 3Gun in September ... how would I have faired using a PCC through this game? Other than the 200yd range, I'd have been in good shape.

    Now, the next question: can I use a suppressor? Because if it's quieter, it feel less expensive when I'm shooting up ammo :-)

    We will be allowing PCC to be used as a rifle. You can certainly use a can if it makes you feel wealthy.
     

    MEGARMS

    KnowNothing
    Jun 3, 2012
    3,843
    Carroll County
    I thought the way things were run on Sunday during the 3-Gun match was excellent. It was challenging, and I have no issue with the lower round count as long as it is kept interesting.

    The match this Sunday was possibly the most fun I have had shooting an 3-Gun event so far.

    Thank you. We are very glad to hear that you enjoyed yourself.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,238
    Montgomery County
    We will be allowing PCC to be used as a rifle. You can certainly use a can if it makes you feel wealthy.

    That will be interesting. For what it’s worth, it’s because I do things like buying suppressors that I’m not wealthy :)

    On using a PCC, I’m just about guaranteeing that 200 yards is going to be me telling the RO, “Let’s just call those misses and save the ammo.”
     

    knovotny

    Active Member
    Feb 5, 2013
    980
    Aberdeen, MD
    I had a great time and liked the stage setups. It was fun to have some thinking and moving and less just blasting ammo. Regarding leaning around the barrels, that got really, really hard for 3 of us on my squad who were really short, there was also a target that was blocked by another for us shorties. That's hard because most of the shooters are what, close to 6 foot? Take away a foot from height and that distance is just hard to make up leaning out but that is what it is. Just putting that bug out there as a thought to be careful of how far to set boxes behind barricades. I liked having options on what to engage what with. The long distance rifle was a ton of fun but reminds me I'd rather shoot long guns all day long than run around with a pistol.

    For rimfire, could it be an option to use a rimfire pistol and regular rifle and shotgun? That could help people who are having a hard time getting 9mm. Of course rimfire is starting to get scarce too.

    Great setups Austin, much appreciated!!
     

    MEGARMS

    KnowNothing
    Jun 3, 2012
    3,843
    Carroll County
    Did this become official for November? I have a buddy who might be interested in doing 2gun if so.

    Sure. We would not turn anyone away if they want to use a PCC. That said, we will be on be on the 200 yard range again in November, which might prove to be a challenge. December's match does not include the 200 and so it will be 5 stages with shots no longer than 65 yards
     

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