200-Yard Rimfire Appleseed Liberty Training Rifle Challenge!

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  • Catch-10-22

    Appleseed Shoot Boss
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 27, 2009
    774
    PG County, MD
    200-Yard Rimfire Liberty Training Rifle Challenge!

    At the Project Appleseed Rimfire Known Distance event at Delmarva Sportsmans Association on October 30, 2021 we had two shooters attempting to qualify with Ruger 10/22 Liberty Training Rifles equipped with Tech Sights.

    Several Maryland shooters have attempted the 200-yard Rimfire Known Distance event with iron sights – we had a couple qualifiers in 2019 and qualify, including yours truly. But both of those shooters were using bolt action rifles equipped with target sights.

    We don’t believe that anyone has qualified with Tech Sights yet, though several have tried. These two shooters prepared for months and developed some great techniques and lessons learned. While neither qualified for their Rimfire KD rockers with (and we will talk about why). Jim (JB) and Bill (BK) offered to share their experiences.

    As you will read, it is a challenge requiring preparation, practice, attention to equipment details, and concentration at the event – but absolutely achievable. JB and BK will guide your way.

    So if you are up to the challenge, read on!

    uc


    Catch-10-22: How did you guys get into Appleseed?

    JB: I started shooting much later in life and was definitely a novice prior to Appleseed. I was struggling with my rifle shooting and didn’t know how to judge any progress I may have been making. My Internet searches led me to Project Appleseed. I've been sold on Project Appleseed since my first shoot in September 2020. The Rimfire KD event this past weekend was yet another fantastic MD Appleseed event. I believe I've become a competent rifleman with my Ruger 10/22 with Tech Sights.. That competence has already transferred to my AR-15 – during our last practice at AGC I put a KD target at 200 yards for the first time with my AR-15 and zero'ed my AR-15 with my Vortex Viper at 4 power. After zero'ing, I shot 5 slow prone and 10 rapid prone producing 11 5's and 4 4's, all hits in the black and a very happy rifleman. Additionally at the May 2021 Appleseed event, I shot my AR-15 on the morning of the second day (first time at an Appleseed) and scored 229, 221 and 209 (screwed up stage 4) and cleared the Red Coat. This stuff definitely transfers to big boy firearms!

    BK: I became interested in the Appleseed after JB began talking about it. We went to the Appleseed in September of 2020 at AGC in Marriottsville. I’ve had some experience with marksmanship as a Marine and later as a civilian. The only rimfire rifle I had at the time was a scoped Marlin 881, which is a bolt action, tube-fed rifle. I didn’t expect the Appleseed would be all that challenging (I was so wrong), so I didn’t prepare as knew that I should have. After my dismal failure at my first Appleseed, I attended two this year (so far). With practice, and the knowledge that we had gained from practicing most every weekend, I came back and made Rifleman, as well as Distinguished Irons (235) at the Annapolis range.

    Catch-10-22: What rifles did you choose for the RKD?

    BK: I put together a Liberty Training Rifle using the Ruger 10/22 Carbine as the basis. I added Tech Sights TSR200RL (Rail) sight, along with the modified bolt catch, sling studs, extended magazine release, and a Volquartsen HP Action kit (for the trigger). My original trigger was rough with a lot of creep and travel. The trigger kit was well worth the cost. Some 10/22’s start out with a decent trigger and might not need the upgrade. Such was JB’s rifle. In my experience, the best single investment you can make to improve your accuracy is a decent trigger (excepting the barrel, of course).

    JB: Project Appleseed essentially says a Liberty Training Rifle with iron sights is all you need and I firmly believe this. Earning my Rimfire KD patch will complete the cycle with my 10/22. Having prepared for and completed a Rimfire KD event with a Ruger 10/22 with Tech Sights I’m surprised to learn that others have earned KD Rifleman with iron sights but not with Tech Sights - maybe BK and I were fortunate in making our 50 yard zero with our rear elevation adjustment 1-click below bottom and adjusting the front post where others may have not done something similar. BK and I have practiced with our 10/22's together for over a year now. sometimes at the range every weekend followed by takeout, beer, movies and discussions on ideas, how we shoot, how to improve, etc. Although we generally have different approaches we pretty much end up with the same or very similar conclusions. At 25 yards, if I shoot 5 shots I want all 5 shots in the black 1" square. I'll take 4/5 shots in the black to account for a flyer or I'm warming up or whatever. When I'm really shooting well, I'll shoot about a 0.5" group all in the black. It takes awhile to get used to the idea that an 8” grouping (4 MOA) is the goal at 200 yards..

    Catch-10-22: How did you set up your Tech Sights for the Rimfire KD event?

    BK: I wasn’t satisfied with the generic statement that came with the sights, that they were 1 MOA per click adjustment, so I ran the numbers for myself. They aren’t 1 MOA, but they’re pretty close. JB and I found our 25 yard zero and confirmed that the adjustments were what we expected. When zeroing with Tech-Sights (same as with an AR-15 style firearm) you set your elevation with the front sight. We opted to set ours so that we had our rear sight just one click up from the sight base (bottom) at 25 yards. This would give us some additional elevation should we need it. Either the rail holes on top of the receiver, or the barrel alignment, is slightly off as my zero on the rear sight for windage is six clicks left of mechanical zero. My rear sight has a total of 43 clicks of windage. With my zero only 15 clicks from the left-most position, or stop, I chose to base my windage settings off of the left stop. After shooting, I run my windage all the way to the left and then return 15 clicks, so that I know that I’m at zero. The same with elevation. I run the sight all the way down and then bring it back one click for my 25 yard zero. We had been shooting Eley CMP standard velocity ammunition (around 1070fps) and had decided to go with the high-velocity (1235 fps) in order to give us more elevation adjustment at 200, should we need it.

    JB: We set the rear elevation to 1-click above its lowest impact setting and then zero'ed elevation with the front sight post. This allowed 1-click of adjustment to lower the point of impact (if needed and it hasn't been) and the remaining range to raise the point of impact for distance out to 200 yards. We make all elevation adjustments on the rear sight (with the Tech Sight adjustment tool) leaving the front post alone. Second, as stated above, we switched to high velocity ammo (CCI Mini-Mags) that gives us about 5 additional clicks at 200 yards versus standard velocity and makes our 25 and 50 yard zeroes identical. Note that we both have the TSR200RL which has elevation adjustments via the front sight post as well as elevation and windage adjustments on the rear sight. This SHOULD work with the TSR200 but NOT with the TSR100. I've read that distance shooting becomes an issue with the TSR100.

    Catch-10-22: How did you practice for the event?


    JB: BK and I started preparing for the 200 Yard Rimfire KD event late May or early June. We started shooting 4MOA squares slow prone at 50 then 75 then 100 yards. Once comfortable with these targets we began to transition to the 100 yard KD Rimfire targets shooting offhand at 25, sitting at 50, rapid prone at 75 and slow prone at 100. About a month and a half out from the event, we began shooting 200 yard KD Rimfire targets offhand at 50 and sitting at 100. About a month out from the event, we switch ranges to have time at 200 yards. I was able to shoot at 200 yards twice prior to the event. BK was able to have a little more range time at 200 yards. I should add that we weren’t doing this every weekend since May/June - early on we were practicing for distance about twice a month and picked it up as the event drew near.

    BK: With my zero established with CCI Mini-Mags at 50 yards, JB and I began practicing at 50 and 100 yards. We almost always started out with testing our zero at 25, and then we’d push it back to 50 or 100, depending on the day. We began practicing at the 200 yard line just a couple of weeks before the RKD at AGC. It was very telling. Again, after checking the ballistics charts that we ran and the ladder targets, we found that we were on the paper and close to where we needed to be. JB’s zero was slightly different from mine (elevation-wise) and I had to add a single click to the left at this distance (this will come back to haunt me).

    JB: Coming into the event, I think that I had done everything I knew to be ready and I felt ready. I had my rifle zero'ed at 50 yards and knew my adjustments at 100 and 200 yards. I had a calculated estimate for 150 yards taking into account my 6 o'clock hold (I don't have access to a range with a 150 yard position). I knew that when I shoot with iron sights sitting at 100 yards and prone at 200 yards I need to make a windage adjustment to move the impacts by 2-clicks to the left. I assumed I needed to make the same windage adjustment for prone at 150 yards (correct assumption). I think this is just me getting used to shooting at distance - I used to need this 2-click adjustment at 50 yards and prone at 100 yards but as I gained experience at these distances I no longer need to do so. One of the practice days at 200 yards was windy and required an additional 2-clicks of windage adjustment to move the impacts left to account for the wind, so I had experienced having to account for the wind at least once. I knew my sight pictures were consistent at 50, 100 and 200 yards as my actual elevation adjustments matched my calculated adjustments using an estimated ballistic table for the CCI Mini-Mags I was using. I used the same table to estimate my 150 yard adjustment. I made two note cards front and back with all of my necessary adjustments and information. I had more information than I needed but the cards fit easily into my shirt pocket and were easily accessed during the event. One card I used had my 50-100-150-200 transitions on one side with my 200-150-100-50 transitions on the back. This worked well for me and I didn't get confused or made mistakes with my adjustments during the event.

    uc


    Catch-10-22: How did the day of the event compare with practice?

    BK: The weather was cool with wind gusts from the South, but it warmed up and the wind died down to the point where it was a non-factor. The tempo was what we expected. JB and I were the only two there with LTRs, and more importantly, the only one’s attempting to qualify with iron sights. I did make one change during the day. My morning AQT was nothing to write home about. I did notice that as the sun crested above the trees, I was getting a substantial shine off my front post. So, between AQTs, I pulled out my sight smoker and smoked the rear surface of the rear aperture sight as well as the front post. This really improved my ability to acquire the target and focus on the front sight post. There was a substantial improvement in my scoring during the afternoon.

    JB: I thought the weather was perfect for the Rimfire KD event. Partly cloudy day, the temperature wasn't too hot or too cold, and the wind turned out to be negligible. I believe I was shooting well Saturday. As an example, on my final 20 rounds at 200 yards, I know I was solid. My position was very good, my rhythm was on and my follow throughs were coming right back to center, just to point out a few. I believe my targets agree with me. They definitely agree with me at 50 and 100 yards. Analyzing my targets for 150 and 200, the shots on paper are grouped 2-clicks lower than expected. On the 2 KD AQTs, I scored 22 and 21 hits on the combined 50/100/150 targets respectively. For my combined 50/100/150 targets, 30/30 and 29/30 on my respective KD AQTs hit in the 3/4/5 ranges even with the 150 stage shooting 2-clicks low. At 200 yards, the 2-clicks low is even more significant. I scored 3 and 8 hits at 200 yards resulting in final scores of 25 and 29. This is a bit of a stretch but not all that unreasonable. If I move the low shots only up by 2-clicks I lose a few hits but gain significantly more hits. This assumes that my low shots on the 50/100/150 target are all from my 150 shots. Ironically, my hits become 40 and 40 respectively.

    Catch-10-22: How did running iron sights impact your RKD experience?

    JB: If someone were to argue that the event was biased against iron sights, while I would not agree with them, I could not disagree on the following points regarding the Red Coat and Ladder Targets at 50 yards. For Appleseed events, iron sights are more difficult than optics. The bar is set differently to earn distinguished for that very reason.

    (Catch-10-22 Note: Similar to the standard 25m AQT where Distinguished for Irons is 230/250 and Optics is 240/250, in the KD "hits count" scoring method, Distinguished for Irons is 46/50 and Optics is 48/50)

    For instance, the Red Coat Target at 50 Yards - this initial target makes sense for those with optics. I'm not certain of the value for those using iron sights. The two largest targets, representing a 100 yard and 200 yard target when positioned at 25 yards, now represent a 200 yard and 400 yard target at 50 yards. The remaining three targets, while visible while looking over the top of my iron sights, were not visible at all looking through the tech sights. The Ladder Sight-In Target at 50 Yards again makes sense for those with optics as this target is entirely based on a center hold. For those with iron sights, who use a 6 o'clock hold, the value of this target is lessened significantly. At 25 yards, we are shooting at a 1 inch square and account for an additional 0.5 inches to center while using a 6 o'clock hold. At 25, 50, 100, 150 and 200 yards we have the following:

    uc


    The offsets need to be factored into the ballistic charts in order to create a 6 o'clock hold version of the center-hold ladder sight in target. My strategy shooting this center-hold ladder target this past weekend was mostly to ensure my shots were grouping well (because it builds my confidence leading up to the AQT's) and to practice making my elevation adjustments between targets (worked well). I knew that I would be below the respective distance squares. I was grouping well and below the distance squares but my shots were 2-clicks right. Odd at the time…I chose to not make any adjustments and see how things progressed.

    (Catch-10-22 Note: The purpose of the ladder squares is to ensure: 1. That shooters have enough elevation in their sighting system to hit a 200 yard target at all; 2. That they have measurable and repeatable clicks in their sighting system; 3. They will not shoot over the berm at actual ranges, creating a safety issue. During this event, we had one scope fail from trying to dial up to 200 and back down again – so the process works as intended. As we emphasize, the squares are a general way to test a rifle and sighting system before moving to the ranges – but zero is determined at range. All that said, the 6 o'clock Hold must be factored in.)

    BK: There is an upside, and downside to running the sights all the way across or down. The upside is that you’re never lost on what your sight-setting is. The downside is that it is time-consuming. During the Rimfire KD that we recently attended, I found that it can also add stress, and therefore, mistakes. Having competed with M14’s and M-16’s (many years ago), it was easy to run the sights down at the end of a relay and count up your adjustments. Tech-Sights require a bit more. The only other option, the one that JB chose, was to leave his sights as they were and to use the come-up values… so much quicker. That’s what I’ll be doing next time. Regardless of which way you go, it’s extremely important to jot down all sight changes you make, and at what distance, in your range book.

    JB: The pacing of the RKD AQTs seemed a little fast. It takes a little more time to make sight adjustments with the Tech Sights. Once I made my adjustments, I would get into position. A few times for stages 2 and 3, as soon as I was in position but before I could check my natural point of aim, prep time was over. However, I was not doing the transitions (getting old sucks) so I was able to use that time for verifying my natural point of aim when needed and I was good to go. I did not need this for offhand at 50 or slow prone at 200 as I was able to use the additional time as I saw fit.

    Catch-10-22: What do you think caused your scores to be lower than in practice?

    JB: We had a fresh KD target for the 200 yard sight-in. My shots were surprisingly at least 2-clicks low. Now I knew something was definitely wrong. I didn't think for a minute that it was an issue with my rifle or sights as it turned out. I thought it was something I was doing wrong. I should have shot 5 or 10 more rounds at 200 yards but I did not. Although I'm not certain what differences it would have made. Late in the day on Saturday, I noticed my rear Tech Sight shift at some point. With frustration setting in a bit, I dismissed following up on this and decided "I'll deal with this later" as I didn't need another problem. Turns out it was likely THE problem and had been a problem for some time. I discovered last night that for several months now my rear sight had become loose and had gradually been creeping backwards to the point it had almost come off the rail - when it's this far back it is no longer firmly on the rail and will wobble. Clearly this is an issue that I have now fixed. My shooting has been a little off the last couple of months and it seems this is likely the issue. I measured the sight radius last night after I repositioned the rear sight and it measured 21 and 9/16 inches. In March, I sent myself an email that indicated my sight radius was 21.75 inches. I doubt it was creating problems yet in March but the shift had already begun as it was already 3/16 of inch back.

    Rear Sight in Proper Position vs Shifted Back on Rail

    uc


    (Catch-10-22 Note: The last person who attempted the RKD with Tech Sights had their front site come fall off the day of the event – so if you are going to attempt this with Tech Sights, use the proper torque and thread locker, and verify your sights are tightly attached before the event).

    BK: In my case, I had made a range card so that I had a handy-dandy chart for all of the important information of the day. My come-ups, my zero (in case I lost my mind during the day), and windage settings. Unfortunately, my range card was a bit too wide for my notebook, so I folded it in half. No biggie. Well, on the back side of the fold, was the windage information that I needed. Remember where I said that I had a 1 MOA left adjustment at 200? Well, I didn’t remember, and since it wasn’t on the front of the card, I didn’t see it. My score for the AQT was 39. Had I made the change, the four shots that I placed one half inch from the right shoulder of the silhouette, would have all scored. However, I didn’t see the annotation on my card and I didn’t make the adjustment that I should have known to make.

    Catch-10-22: Any final lessons learned?

    JB: Having my rear sight come loose is definitely on me (despite using blue Loctite on the front and rear sights when I installed them). It was not on my list of things to check but it certainly is now. Live and learn. I will persist and return to a Rimfire KD event with my Ruger 10/22 and Tech Sights. I will head home that day with my Rimfire KD patch.

    BK: Always check your equipment prior to using it. Make your range card simple and direct so that you have all the necessary information available at a glance. Either of these two very simple things can assist or prevent you from achieving your goal.

    Catch-10-22: Thank you JB and BK for your honest appraisals of the event and helpful insights. I hope you both come out and earn that Rocker next year!
     

    joppaj

    Sheepdog
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Apr 11, 2008
    46,459
    MD
    That is in depth follow-up. Thank you for sharing it.
     

    fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    Wow, bookmarked. 200 yards off irons with 22LR while being timed and scored. Presuming 40 gr RN ammo that's shooting 1000-1200 fps from the muzzle, or are any using supersonic so there's less drop?

    Edit: found it on the reread ...

    We had been shooting Eley CMP standard velocity ammunition (around 1070fps) and had decided to go with the high-velocity (1235 fps) in order to give us more elevation adjustment at 200, should we need it.
     

    Catch-10-22

    Appleseed Shoot Boss
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 27, 2009
    774
    PG County, MD
    I guess with that many clicks, it was worth it to save 5 clicks of elevation and use the HV stuff. It was an even split at the event between SV (a lot of Wolf and SK) and HV (nearly all Mini-Mags) IIRC. But their groups, apart from the issues described in the interview, were just fine with HV. All depends on what your rifle likes, as you noted in your CZ Scout write up.
     

    fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    What's the course of fire that they have to achieve at 200 yards (e.g. how many hits within what time limit)?

    Are they monitoring wind with a Kestrel device or does someone do this for the shooters? 22LR (40 gr) at 200 yards is roughly the time that 223 (55 gr) takes to do 600 yards (and the rounds have a better ballistic coefficient so likely go even further in the same time). Wind is a serious factor at these distances for 223. I've never shot 22LR past 100 yards but would guess that wind can have a significant effect on a slow moving 40 gr bullet with drag out at 200 yards.
     

    Catch-10-22

    Appleseed Shoot Boss
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 27, 2009
    774
    PG County, MD
    The stages are the same as any Appleseed except we shoot at one target at each distance:

    Stage 1: Standing @ 50 yards - 1 10-round magazine in 2 minutes

    Stage 2: Standing Transition to Seated @ 100 yards - Magazines of 2 and 8 rounds, 55 seconds

    Stage 3: Standing Transition to Prone @ 150 yards - Magazines if 2 and 8, 65 seconds

    Stage 4: Slow Fire Prone @ 200 yards - 1 10-round magazine in 2 minutes. Rather than count double like on the AQT, we shoot this twice.

    The rapid fire stages (2 and 3) are intense with a bolt action or irons (or both) or a malfunction.

    You are absolutely right about the wind having much more effect than centerfire but everyone needs to make their own wind calls (we teach speed, value, and holds at the course). No one brought a Kestrel, but they are allowed. Delmarva has some crossing avenues of higher wind, but others that are more sheltered on the 200 yard range. So you have to make good estimates based on all those variables. Too much fun!
     

    Thwack22

    Member
    Aug 8, 2012
    54
    NoVa
    Very interesting and thanks for incuding the mechanical, logistic and course of fire details. Planning to attend an Appleseed event next year.
     

    MacGuns

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 14, 2013
    1,899
    Damascus
    You are absolutely right about the wind having much more effect than centerfire but everyone needs to make their own wind calls (we teach speed, value, and holds at the course). No one brought a Kestrel, but they are allowed. Delmarva has some crossing avenues of higher wind, but others that are more sheltered on the 200 yard range. So you have to make good estimates based on all those variables. Too much fun!

    I actually brought my Kestrel, I measured at the 200 yard line, but due to the concrete wall, there was little to no wind. I should have measured at the 50 yard line when we were down there. That is the only location where wind would have some effect at Delmarva.
     

    Catch-10-22

    Appleseed Shoot Boss
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 27, 2009
    774
    PG County, MD
    I actually brought my Kestrel, I measured at the 200 yard line, but due to the concrete wall, there was little to no wind. I should have measured at the 50 yard line when we were down there. That is the only location where wind would have some effect at Delmarva.

    Of course I should have assumed you brought one :D
     

    Off_paper

    Member
    Apr 30, 2021
    71
    AACo
    Thanks for the thorough write-up, and for letting me borrow your rifle, it was a fun event! Watching Jim and Bill attempt this with tech sights was truly a sight to see, and I know they'll be able to pull it off in the future!
     

    Catch-10-22

    Appleseed Shoot Boss
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 27, 2009
    774
    PG County, MD
    Yes, it was truly an impressive effort and I really appreciate them sharing their insights and experiences. We had so many people "oh, so close" that weekend. Hope to have two Rimfire Known Distance events - spring and fall - on the calendar next year. Stay tuned!
     

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