FBI Goes GLOCK 9mm

DC-W · Jun 29, 2016

Glock scored an $85,000,000 contract to supply the FBI with their new service pistols. The Firearm Blog reports that it isn't known if the Glock pistol that won is a current model, or something made per the FBI's request (they mention that the FBI did not want finger grooves, for example). What is certain, is that the FBI is going 9mm and abandoning the .40.

TFB Article: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/06/29/breaking-fbi-selects-glock-next-service-handgun/

Award notice here:
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...&id=3003911f9f7ff35889bf5f46c48ba0ef&_cview=0

:party29:

knastera · Jun 30, 2016

Good choice for the Glock. I don't agree with the ammo choice unless they go with a really good expanding round.

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zoostation · Jun 30, 2016

Amazing how the terminal ballistics of quality 9mm and .40 caliber JHP rounds haven't changed much at all in twenty years yet suddenly when a lot of recruits can't qualify with .40 anymore, the 9mm becomes just as good. Plus I read on the internet the 9mm is a better choice. It must be true.

I just wish they'd be honest. The .40 makes bigger holes in bad guys when it hits. It's just many of today's snowflakes can't land those hits. So it's a little snappier. It's not that bad. You'd think it recoiled like .500 S&W the way some of these self-anointed "experts" on the web talk. My own opinion is if you can't handle the little extra noise and recoil from a .40, then law enforcement probably isn't a good career choice for you.

Rant off.

jawn · Jun 30, 2016

knastera said:
Good choice for the Glock. I don't agree with the ammo choice unless they go with a really good expanding round.

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It's not the 1980s. The FBI runs Speer Gold Dots or Speer Gold Dot G2s. All of the Speer Gold Dot loadings exceed the FBI minimum 12" penetration requirement and expand substantially and consistently.

Hell, the vast majority of premium jacketed hollow point ammo in 9mm, .40, and .45 have extremely similar performance in ballistics gel.

DC-W · Jun 30, 2016

zoostation said:
Amazing how the terminal ballistics of quality 9mm and .40 caliber JHP rounds haven't changed much at all in twenty years yet suddenly when a lot of recruits can't qualify with .40 anymore, the 9mm becomes just as good. Plus I read on the internet the 9mm is a better choice. It must be true.

I just wish they'd be honest. The .40 makes bigger holes in bad guys when it hits. It's just many of today's snowflakes can't land those hits. So it's a little snappier. It's not that bad. You'd think it recoiled like .500 S&W the way some of these self-anointed "experts" on the web talk. My own opinion is if you can't handle the little extra noise and recoil from a .40, then law enforcement probably isn't a good career choice for you.

Rant off.

If all handgun calibers suck, why not carry more lead?

Norton · Jun 30, 2016

zoostation said:
Amazing how the terminal ballistics of quality 9mm and .40 caliber JHP rounds haven't changed much at all in twenty years yet suddenly when a lot of recruits can't qualify with .40 anymore, the 9mm becomes just as good. Plus I read on the internet the 9mm is a better choice. It must be true.

I just wish they'd be honest. The .40 makes bigger holes in bad guys when it hits. It's just many of today's snowflakes can't land those hits. So it's a little snappier. It's not that bad. You'd think it recoiled like .500 S&W the way some of these self-anointed "experts" on the web talk. My own opinion is if you can't handle the little extra noise and recoil from a .40, then law enforcement probably isn't a good career choice for you.

Rant off.

Given what I hear from folks in other agencies that are using the .357 SIG, I imagine we will see other outfits change too for the same reasons.

zoostation · Jun 30, 2016

jawn said:
It's not the 1980s. The FBI runs Speer Gold Dots or Speer Gold Dot G2s. All of the Speer Gold Dot loadings exceed the FBI minimum 12" penetration requirement and expand substantially and consistently.

Hell, the vast majority of premium jacketed hollow point ammo in 9mm, .40, and .45 have extremely similar performance in ballistics gel.

I would beg to differ. While there's a million of these tests out there from everything from published government tests to assorted people on youtube, luckygunner has one of the best and most concise recent compilations I think.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

Yoshi · Jun 30, 2016

10mm --> .40 --> 9mm --> .22LR?

Minuteman · Jun 30, 2016

zoostation said:
I would beg to differ. While there's a million of these tests out there from everything from published government tests to assorted people on youtube, luckygunner has one of the best and most concise recent compilations I think.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

Great reference!

Yoshi said:
10mm --> .40 --> 9mm --> .22LR?

10mm > .40 > 9mm > .380 More likely. I read the full FBI ballistics report, they got it right, 9mm is the way to go, for all the reasons they list. Recoil, cost of ammo, accuracy among large number of officers, cost of guns/repair, penetration, ability to shoot better faster, etc.

Yoshi · Jun 30, 2016

zoostation said:
I would beg to differ. While there's a million of these tests out there from everything from published government tests to assorted people on youtube, luckygunner has one of the best and most concise recent compilations I think.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

That's a great article. Thanks for posting.

joppaj · Jun 30, 2016

Amen Brother Zoo.

kgain673 · Jun 30, 2016

zoostation said:
Amazing how the terminal ballistics of quality 9mm and .40 caliber JHP rounds haven't changed much at all in twenty years yet suddenly when a lot of recruits can't qualify with .40 anymore, the 9mm becomes just as good. Plus I read on the internet the 9mm is a better choice. It must be true.

I just wish they'd be honest. The .40 makes bigger holes in bad guys when it hits. It's just many of today's snowflakes can't land those hits. So it's a little snappier. It's not that bad. You'd think it recoiled like .500 S&W the way some of these self-anointed "experts" on the web talk. My own opinion is if you can't handle the little extra noise and recoil from a .40, then law enforcement probably isn't a good career choice for you.

Rant off.

I agree with you completely. I've seen 5 foot tall female officers shoot master scores with .40 caliber handguns. And watched 6 foot tall grown men continue to fail on courses. I don't think the choice of caliber is going rectify that problem. Shooting is all mental. But truth be told. I rather carry a 9mm because the ammo is cheaper to practice with. But I dont' believe my scores would change at all.

jimbobborg · Jun 30, 2016

The Miami Shootout was the reason why the FBI was looking for a new round. The .38 Specials and 9mms both failed to work properly after penetrating windshield glass.

davsco · Jun 30, 2016

there's definitely a difference in recoil between 9 and 40, part of the reason that uspsa and other competitive shooting games set power factors in and between the different divisions. that doesn't (well, it shouldn't) affect the first shot but can/will affect followup shots. there's no free lunch though, so if you're getting less recoil, the round is going to have less downrange energy.

i've only done one official qual and that was the dhs ice which was frankly a joke. with all the time given to get shots off, 9 v 40 or even 45 would make no difference at all. shooting a qual is a different animal than putting rounds downrange during a match or especially at a bad guy firing back.

Alea Jacta Est · Jun 30, 2016

Timing. Placement. Tools.

Great links btw. Thanks much.

alucard0822 · Jun 30, 2016

zoostation said:
Amazing how the terminal ballistics of quality 9mm and .40 caliber JHP rounds haven't changed much at all in twenty years yet suddenly when a lot of recruits can't qualify with .40 anymore, the 9mm becomes just as good. Plus I read on the internet the 9mm is a better choice. It must be true.

I just wish they'd be honest. The .40 makes bigger holes in bad guys when it hits. It's just many of today's snowflakes can't land those hits. So it's a little snappier. It's not that bad. You'd think it recoiled like .500 S&W the way some of these self-anointed "experts" on the web talk. My own opinion is if you can't handle the little extra noise and recoil from a .40, then law enforcement probably isn't a good career choice for you.

Rant off.

Thing is some 40S&W subsonic 165-180gr LEO loads like Speer's 53949 are a lot more pleasant to shoot than comparable 9+p, they run at a much lower pressure and are more efficient in short barrels, so even though raw recoil may calculate about the same, they feel LIGHTER than 9, but have more momentum to enhance penetration, and a larger diameter, only thing you really give up is a round or two in capacity. The FBI doesn't really mention that all of the new tech that improves 9mm ballistics is also used in other calibers, and in 40's case, due to it's popularity there are some loads that are just better for many purposes. I do understand their reasons for going back to 9, and agree, it's primarily cost, and ease of training, it is not because it is a better round, merely that it is the cheapest and least powerful round that can meet their minimum ballistic criteria.

jawn · Jun 30, 2016

zoostation said:
I would beg to differ. While there's a million of these tests out there from everything from published government tests to assorted people on youtube, luckygunner has one of the best and most concise recent compilations I think.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

There's a reason I said premium. Most of the loads that the LuckyGunner tested are antiquated garbage or bulk pack stuff, e.g.: PMC StarFire, Prvi Partisan, Federal Hi-Shok, etc... No department would ever use this stuff as their issue ammo.

Hydrostatic shock doesn't come into play until at least 1000 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. All handgun rounds are poor man-stoppers. Carry what you can shoot accurately and rapidly. So maybe the FBI has a problem with hiring "snowflakes" as you've so eloquently put it. You can't say that even for the non-snowflakes that shoot .40 well, they wouldn't shoot 9mm better.

The other aspect to this is that the FBI has way more M4 variants now. If the Miami incident were to occur today, they'd never send guys in with handguns and shotguns to pick up guys with rifles.

Blaster229 · Jun 30, 2016

Rumor has it my Agency may be going G19 too. Buh byes P229 .357

Indiana Jones · Jun 30, 2016

Gross.

balext · Jun 30, 2016

zoostation said:
I would beg to differ. While there's a million of these tests out there from everything from published government tests to assorted people on youtube, luckygunner has one of the best and most concise recent compilations I think.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

Thanks for the link. Great info.

FBI Goes GLOCK 9mm

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