Who has piston AR platform?

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  • omegared24

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 23, 2011
    4,747
    Ijamsville, MD
    That is certainly true, and sadly it looks like Sig is going to win it with their offering. Of the three, I think it offered the least advancements, and it doesn’t do nearly as much to mitigate the pressures involved.
    This isn’t specifically what you’re looking for, but here’s the NGSW landing page. You can probably get enough to navigate to where you want to be from there:

    https://asc.army.mil/web/portfolio-item/fws-cs-2/

    That tells us nothing about the actual solicitation. I assume the people talking about this have read the scope and SOW.

    Again, gov procurement isn't as simple as people make out to be and the wording in that link leads me to believe this is a very small pilot program.
     

    woodline

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2017
    1,947
    That tells us nothing about the actual solicitation. I assume the people talking about this have read the scope and SOW.

    Again, gov procurement isn't as simple as people make out to be and the wording in that link leads me to believe this is a very small pilot program.
    You’re coming into it about 3-4 years late. The details of the competition, to include recent downselects, have been publicized widely. The contract has yet to be awarded. I don’t know if there is a SOO or SOW yet, or even a size and scope for the contract. What we do know is that they are looking to replace certain firearms in the Army’s inventory. The Army has announced that they will be replacing the M240 and M249 at the heavy weapons and squad designated marksman level, but details that came out of testing as well as soldier trials have leaked that they intend to replace the M4 as well. We don’t yet know how large the contract will be.

    There are two variants being tested from each competitor, belt fed and magazine fed. Both have dedicated suppressor requirements, and each competitor was allowed to design their own ammo. As another poster mentioned, Sig intends to sell on .277 Sig fury regardless of how the competition goes. Recent leaks have come out stating the Textron and General Dynamics competitors have been withdrawn by the manufacturer, so the final downselect to Sig is all but guaranteed. There hasn’t been info on whether Leupold or Vortex are more likely to win the related optic competition. I think there is competition for the laser aiming portion as well, the winner of which is required to be integrated into the optic.

    That’s a summary, feel free to google the rest yourself.
     

    omegared24

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 23, 2011
    4,747
    Ijamsville, MD
    You’re coming into it about 3-4 years late. The details of the competition, to include recent downselects, have been publicized widely. The contract has yet to be awarded. I don’t know if there is a SOO or SOW yet, or even a size and scope for the contract. What we do know is that they are looking to replace certain firearms in the Army’s inventory. The Army has announced that they will be replacing the M240 and M249 at the heavy weapons and squad designated marksman level, but details that came out of testing as well as soldier trials have leaked that they intend to replace the M4 as well. We don’t yet know how large the contract will be.

    There are two variants being tested from each competitor, belt fed and magazine fed. Both have dedicated suppressor requirements, and each competitor was allowed to design their own ammo. As another poster mentioned, Sig intends to sell on .277 Sig fury regardless of how the competition goes. Recent leaks have come out stating the Textron and General Dynamics competitors have been withdrawn by the manufacturer, so the final downselect to Sig is all but guaranteed. There hasn’t been info on whether Leupold or Vortex are more likely to win the related optic competition. I think there is competition for the laser aiming portion as well, the winner of which is required to be integrated into the optic.

    That’s a summary, feel free to google the rest yourself.

    A solicitation doesn't exist without a SOO, SOW or scope for that matter. That's just not how it works.

    Again...people typing when they have no idea what they are talking about. If this was issued as you stated then it would never make it out of the gate and would be protested to oblivion. The FAR is very clear with how solicitations work.

    If you don't understand the process that's fine. Just don't pretend that you do.

    Also, none of these manufacturers would spend R&D money on something that they don't intend to sell commercially at some point. They always have a back up plan. Will it sell? That's a different story.
     

    babalou

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 12, 2013
    16,020
    Glenelg
    yup

    DI guns are pistons... the piston is just the bolt and the carrier is the cylinder. It's the nature of semi-autos that aren't some form of delayed blowback that they'll have a piston somewhere to operate the gun. ARs are cool because the reciprocating mass of the piston is in direct line with the bore and the only thing really dicking around with barrel harmonics is the gas tube/block.. not a big piston cachunkachunking back and forth on it. DI guns are extremely reliable, with just a need for squirting lube in every once in a while if they start getting sluggish. The "the bcg on piston guns stays clean" thing is silly. The piston still gets plenty dirty, it's just out under the handguard now instead of stuck in the bcg... along with all that heat to keep your hands nice and toasty.

    If you're going to go with a "piston gun", just go with a gun designed to actually be a piston gun. Scoop up a tavor, xcr, or sig mcx. SCARs are now cool again since the charging handles are not reciprocating anymore. They'll all have things a modified AR wont have, like folding stocks, a more compact bullpup design, and broader aftermarket support(piston ARs run into compatibility issues when swapping things like handguards).

    Yup yup. I saw that video on here a while ago that showed that DI guns are actually "piston".
     

    babalou

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 12, 2013
    16,020
    Glenelg
    my PWS mk116

    I can see DOD buying more expensive piston rifles. It's not their money. I can also see that bigger calibers might benefit from a piston system. Most 7.62×51s are, with the AR10 being the outlier. In a 5.56 rifle it adds weight, with very little benefits. I'm speaking of AR15 based piston rifles. Smokey brings up good points above.

    my PWS mk116 empty weighs in at under 7 lbs. Long stroke. Love that thing. Like I stated before, the first AR I got in 2013. Keymod rail.
     

    woodline

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2017
    1,947
    A solicitation doesn't exist without a SOO, SOW or scope for that matter. That's just not how it works.

    Again...people typing when they have no idea what they are talking about. If this was issued as you stated then it would never make it out of the gate and would be protested to oblivion. The FAR is very clear with how solicitations work.

    If you don't understand the process that's fine. Just don't pretend that you do.

    Also, none of these manufacturers would spend R&D money on something that they don't intend to sell commercially at some point. They always have a back up plan. Will it sell? That's a different story.
    I read the news. I am not a contracting officer nor a PM. I am also not involved in Army procurement. I just use the firearms I am issued. Since you clearly are on the programmatics side, feel free to find the programmatic information behind the highly publicized and heavily covered by the news NGSW competition and interpret it for us morons. Or keep telling me I am stupid and don’t know what I’m talking about. I don’t care which one you do. Have a great day.
     

    Virgil Co.C

    Active Member
    Aug 10, 2018
    615
    Well gee thanks guys . I been wondering about them , like to have one just because I don’t . I’m far from technical about it as some . Always curios if piston was better more reliable .Seen a show about having less heat . Piston versus DI. Oh heck I’m gonna get one . I think I should have one .
     

    camo556

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 29, 2021
    2,634
    The Defense Authorization for 2022 budgets about $175 million for the Next Generation Squad Weapon. ~97 million for the weapon and ~78 mil for ammunition. (See lines 023 and in section SEC. 4101. PROCUREMENT). Compared to other small arms items its a big number (all 556 is $48 million and all 7.62 is $75 mil for example). It was 100% of what the Army asked for.

    So idk, sounds like a done deal to me. Congress says go spend money, the Army will spend money.


    (House version)
    https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4350/text

    You can search the text for "squad" to see the numbers and relevant sections.

    It also tells the secretary of the Army to (see section 114):

    (1) Initial market survey.--Not later than one year after a
    decision is made to enter into full-rate production for the
    next generation squad weapon, the Secretary of the Army shall
    conduct a market survey to identify accessories for such
    weapon, including magazines and other components, that could
    affect the weapon's performance.

    The paragraphs sounds as if some decision on "full rate production" is coming soon. Along with $175 million to spend!

    Edit: Also, looking at the 2021 authorization, these items were larger than last year and in 2021 bill there was increased funding for NGSW "to incorporate more soldiers, marines, and special operators in providing user assessment of the NGSW system"

    so apparently its already in user testing. I wonder how that is going.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    The Defense Authorization for 2022 budgets about $175 million for the Next Generation Squad Weapon. ~97 million for the weapon and ~78 mil for ammunition. (See lines 023 and in section SEC. 4101. PROCUREMENT). Compared to other small arms items its a big number (all 556 is $48 million and all 7.62 is $75 mil for example). It was 100% of what the Army asked for.

    So idk, sounds like a done deal to me. Congress says go spend money, the Army will spend money.


    (House version)
    https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/4350/text

    You can search the text for "squad" to see the numbers and relevant sections.

    It also tells the secretary of the Army to (see section 114):



    The paragraphs sounds as if some decision on "full rate production" is coming soon. Along with $175 million to spend!

    Edit: Also, looking at the 2021 authorization, these items were larger than last year and in 2021 bill there was increased funding for NGSW "to incorporate more soldiers, marines, and special operators in providing user assessment of the NGSW system"

    so apparently its already in user testing. I wonder how that is going.

    Didn't the Marine Corps already go full piston? And fully suppressed? My boss's son is USMC. I thought that was what he was telling me last summer.

    As a side note, the DOD is well known for its penchant newest-latest-greatest weapons system and rarely does it live up to the hype.

    Have to admit, this conversation bores me, so probably my last contribution...
     

    Rocinante

    Active Member
    Jul 19, 2018
    182
    Eastern Shore
    Where do you find T91 upper that I can use for my AR15 lower? Or I have to buy a T91 complete rifle?

    https://atlanticfirearms.com/wolf-a1-upper

    Price has gone up but you can get them from Atlantic, AIM, and Classic Firearms.
    Only the uppers are imported. If you want to clone a T91, T91Tactical has the rest of the parts.

    I was waiting to see if anyone else has gotten into these. I ended up building three of them. T91's have become my favorites, so easy to clean, will eat anything, accurate, and have the Mil. Spec. parts available if you wish to change things around.

    Yep, decided to get the trifecta of uppers once I had enough money. I did a mil-spec conversion to the 14.5 and pin and weld on the T91 muzzle device. OH BOY what an experience that was! Hand-drilling a proprietary gas block is not fun, but she can reach out to 500 yards and can now fix bayonet. The 12.5 can even shoot a 4in group with at 300yrd with M193.
     

    omegared24

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 23, 2011
    4,747
    Ijamsville, MD
    I read the news. I am not a contracting officer nor a PM. I am also not involved in Army procurement. I just use the firearms I am issued. Since you clearly are on the programmatics side, feel free to find the programmatic information behind the highly publicized and heavily covered by the news NGSW competition and interpret it for us morons. Or keep telling me I am stupid and don’t know what I’m talking about. I don’t care which one you do. Have a great day.

    I never called you stupid. I just said you don't know what you're talking about. I don't expect people to understand the process. Just don't act like you do.

    It really is very complex and riddled with red tape. Especially when new technology or equipment is coming in. Rarely do these go anywhere and the contractors know that. That's why they have contingency plans and price accordingly.
     

    jrumann59

    DILLIGAF
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 17, 2011
    14,024
    the only good thing that would come with the US adopting a new piston system for every soldier is the standardization of piston parts. until then no desire for a piston system AR.
     

    omegared24

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 23, 2011
    4,747
    Ijamsville, MD
    the only good thing that would come with the US adopting a new piston system for every soldier is the standardization of piston parts. until then no desire for a piston system AR.

    That's a good point. If they standardized the system you would see more people adopting it. Hell, I might build one for shits and giggles.

    It sucks when something breaks and you can't find parts.
     

    jrumann59

    DILLIGAF
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 17, 2011
    14,024
    That's a good point. If they standardized the system you would see more people adopting it. Hell, I might build one for shits and giggles.

    It sucks when something breaks and you can't find parts.
    In todays climate it is hard to tell who will be around in 10 years, LWRC had some rough patches, adcor, Sig will outlast them. Too many proprietary systems with no interchangeability so until a platform is widely adopted by the military piston is just a niche design.
     

    Capt Skup

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 29, 2012
    2,385
    Calvert County
    I have a Core15 piston rifle that has not given me any problems. I believe the piston system is from Adams Arms. Probably paid more for it than I should but that was back in 2013. Fit and finish very good, the rifle works well for me.
     

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