M1A - Before SB281 what were they classfied as?

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  • Feb 28, 2013
    28,953
    If you want a 308, get an AR-10 and be happy. Pricing for it and accuracy is on par with the M1a1.

    It's just like how AK rifles are banned but VZ-58 or VZ-2008s are not. The inmates have taken over the asylum.

    That's because AK's have that worldwide menacing reputation and have been used in plenty of movies.:bigwhoop::rolleyes:
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    Sources I have seen say the M-14 was officially adopted in 1959. Supposedly replaced the Garands by 1961 (see above post).

    And was in service until 1970.

    Tooling was sold to Taiwan in 1969.

    Wikipedia is wrong about that.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=M14...hrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8

    "Officially" adopted only means "adopted on paper by a bunch of paper-pushers". Remember the Garand was officially adopted in 1936, but it was two years before samples were even displayed at Camp Perry matches. Apparently the first M14s weren't delivered until 1959, which is probably Wikipedia's confusion.

    I wish I could cite my source for the 82nd Airborne still being armed with Garands in 1962, but I can't, so I'm content to leave it as Internet Hearsay for now. I know I heard it a few years ago, and my impression is that the source was decent. I realize it's only hearsay.

    Equipment, including guns, seems to get updated pretty inconsistently though. To say that the entire army was fully equipped with M14s in 1961 seems a bit pat. Real life is full of sloppy inconsistencies. Perhaps the new rifles went to the front line troops in Germany, and some Stateside units still had the old rifles.

    In early October of 1962, no one expected we would be invading Cuba with no advance warning at all. Suddenly North Carolina was the front line, not the Fulda Gap. So here is the 82nd Airborne, boarding planes with full combat gear, including Garands. "Not tho' the Soldier knew/ Some one had blunder'd." Surprising, but not entirely implausible.

    But I cannot cite a source. Bonjour.


    edit to add:

    I have found this interesting piece.

    http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940585/m14.pdf

    This seems to lend a LOT of plausibility to the suggestion that the 82nd Airborne in North Carolina was still armed with Garands in October of '62.

    At that time "everybody knew" that WWIII wouyld break out in Berlin.

    "...On May 1, 1957 the Army officially adopted the T44 as the M14 and began to make preparations for its production.

    ...By the close of fiscal year 1960, only 10,000 had been produced and delivered...

    In`1960, camera footage showed U.S. troops, armed with M1 Garands, manning the front lines in Berlin, as the cold war threatened to become hot."
     

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    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Not disagreeing with you, just pointing out what some sources say. The article you attached points out that it was officially adopted in 1957, but no contract for production went out for 21 months, making it 1959. I can see where the 1959 adoption number came from.

    And not disagreeing with your knowledge of 82nd Airborne with Garands in Oct 1962. But a confirmed course would be nice.

    And to think, the M14 was supposed to replace not only the Garand, but also the M1 Carbine, M3 grease gun, and BAR. Yeah RIGHT.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    The 82nd Airborne thing is only hearsay, since I don't remember where I heard it. I may have heard it from a pudgy French guy with a starry-eyed blonde girlfriend. But I think it's likely true.

    The point is, armies don't replace their gear overnight when the new thing is "adopted". The AK was adopted in 1947, but I don't think they were issued in quantity for years after. The M16 was apparently "adopted" in 1970, but had been in combat use for years before that.

    Reality is sloppy.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    According to the article you linked, the M14 was killed in Jan 1963 and the contract for the M-16 went was let in Nov 1963.

    But M14 was officially in the inventory until 1970, and the M-16 not the official rifle until 1969.

    See, the US Army makes as much sense as MD firearms laws. :)
     

    Capt Skup

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 29, 2012
    2,385
    Calvert County
    We (Navy in Guam) had M-14's when I left in 1990. I took care of 50 or so of the beautiful rifles, they were designated for the squadron along with 50 870's and about the same amount of 1911's. I wonder where all of them went.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    When I was a kid, I learned that the .45-70 Trapdoor Springfield was adopted in 1873.
    The Krag-Jorgensen was adopted in 1892.
    The '03 Springfield was adopted in 1903.
    The Garand was adopted in 1936.
    The M14 was adopted in 1957.

    Anyway, in my childish innocence, I imagined that all the Trapdoors magically vanished in 1892 (sold to Hollywood prop companies, apparently). Every U.S. soldier suddenly had a Krag. Then 11 years later, every single Krag was replaced by a Springfield instantaneously. If you had looked at any U.S. Army unit in 1904, every blessed soldier would have had a shiny new Springfield. Likewise, all the Garands vanished overnight in 1957, and the entire army was fully equipped with M14s the very next morning.

    It just didn't work that way. The army continued to use .50-70 Trapdoors and Spencer carbines for several years. Because there weren't enough 03 Springfields available in 1917, half the Doughboys in France used the 1917 rifle. The troops of the Archangel expedition were equipped with Mosin-Nagants!

    My uncle carried a 1917 rifle in Europe in 1944-45 (actually he leaned it in the corner next to his typewriter 100 miles behind the lines) while my father guarded German POWs in Tennessee with a 12 gauge shotgun ('97 Winchester?) and a .45 revolver (1917 Colt? S&W?).

    Just a few days ago, I saw a photograph online of a unit of GIs on training maneuvers in England in the spring of '44. They were entirely equipped with Springfields. I wonder if they got Garands just before D Day? If so, I wonder if they got a chance to train with them?

    Garands were used in combat by U.S. personnel in the early days of Vietnam, and later on the M16 was in universal use several years before it was even officially adopted. Or when exactly was it adopted?

    Conclusion/Thesis/Argument:
    This whole notion of "official adoption" is flawed. It encourages misunderstandings and misconceptions about what was really happening in the real world.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    We (Navy in Guam) had M-14's when I left in 1990. I took care of 50 or so of the beautiful rifles, they were designated for the squadron along with 50 870's and about the same amount of 1911's. I wonder where all of them went.

    Most of the Army's M14s were destroyed on orders of the Clinton Administration. Ground up and chopped up in a giant rifle-shredding machine called "Captain Crunch." A lot of Garands were shredded, too. Many of the surviving M14s were sent to Lithuania as military aid. A fairly small number remained in inventory. Many of those were reconfigured for service in Afghanistan.

    I believe the Navy still has theirs, though. I hope yours are still being lovingly cared for by your replacement.
     

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,480
    Fairfax, VA
    Most of the Army's M14s were destroyed on orders of the Clinton Administration. Ground up and chopped up in a giant rifle-shredding machine called "Captain Crunch." A lot of Garands were shredded, too. Many of the surviving M14s were sent to Lithuania as military aid. A fairly small number remained in inventory. Many of those were reconfigured for service in Afghanistan.

    I believe the Navy still has theirs, though. I hope yours are still being lovingly cared for by your replacement.

    In addition, there were a little over 10k National Match M14's. Some were purpose built as National Match rifles right out of the factory. The receivers were made with the full auto tab and notch like a regular M14, but had the selector lock and bar welded in place instead of the switch. Some were military rifles later rebuilt as match rifles with the selector parts welded. The DCM/CMP used to have those out on loan to affiliate clubs. I believe the CMP recalled those in the early 2000's, probably because the Army wanted them back for combat use.

    Here's the case where a purpose built NM M14 in private hands was determined in court to not be an unregistered machine gun and to not be subject to "once a machine gun, always a machine gun." The court's logic was that the US govt contracted production of that M14 as a semi auto NM rifle, not a military use M14. Therefore, it never was a machine gun since it was never intended as one and it never had the selector parts for full auto.

    Yes, the US govt technically sued an M14 rifle in court and lost.
    http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bardwell/us_v_m_14.txt
     
    Feb 28, 2013
    28,953
    Most of the Army's M14s were destroyed on orders of the Clinton Administration. Ground up and chopped up in a giant rifle-shredding machine called "Captain Crunch." A lot of Garands were shredded, too.
    :wtf: :shocked: :shocking: :mad54: :banghead: :shocked2:

    As if I didn't find the impeach, disbarred pervert detestable enough already...:sad20:

    I believe the Navy still has theirs, though. I hope yours are still being lovingly cared for by your replacement.

    You can damn sure bet that MY first Garand will certainly be kept safe from any piece of shit called "captain crunch" when I get it. :war:
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    According to Scot Duff

    Grand total 1,376,031 M14s produced

    Estimated destroyed 750,000

    About 450,000 sent to Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia? etc.

    Many were cut with torches, magazines smashed with sledge hammers, etc.

    http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=282443

    Your tax dollars at work.


    Captain Crunch:

    http://www.army.mil/article/64835/

    Notice Captain Crunch is at Anniston Alabama, where the CMP has all those crates of Garands warehoused.

    It's easy to see if we all don't do our part and buy more Garands, they will end up in Captain Crunch.

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