Taser attachment for handguns...think we're close to this?

NickZac · Mar 27, 2014

I noticed the other day that Taser Intentional had updated the X26 designs with a model that is smaller, all-digital, more reliable, and more capable. It seems each new generation makes quite a form factor shrink. So that got me wondering...has anyone heard of a taser attachment that can go on the tac rail of a handgun? (or maybe as an AR/shotgun attachment that the public can buy for home defense?) Do you think that is possible and we are close to it? (I assume the size/weight of the battery & circuits will be the biggest challenge?)

It seems that whether for law enforcement, military, or plain home defense/carry usage that such an item could potentially be useful by allowing simultaneous access to LTL and traditional defense mechanisms to give that safety redundancy?

In a home defense sense, my concern with a taser is that if the one or two shots fail, then there may not be enough time to discard the taser and ready a firearm before serious bodily harm from a bad guy is inflicted. I would like the ability to utilize LTL technology whenever safely possible, but at the same time would also like to not compromise on tried-and-proven mechanisms in the event the LTL is not successful.

(also, I figure if it is something that can go on a rail and be easily detachable, then the more frequent upkeep/parts replacements for the taser will likely be easier and cheaper than a full integration with a firearm that goes longer service intervals than a taser.)

So could possibly having both on the same platform work? Is anyone working on this?

Wayne1one · Mar 27, 2014

Banned

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Wayne1one · Mar 27, 2014

Just kidding, depends where you are in MD. Tasers are iffy if you ask me... Not a fan!

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Name Taken · Mar 27, 2014

Horrible idea really.

If it's a not a lethal force situation you shouldn't be pointing a gun at someone.

If it is a lethal force situation you shouldn't be using a Tazer unless you have someone with you with a lethal force option.

In a OH S*** situation do you really think you'll have the ability to switch from gun to Tazer and vice versa? Probably not.

No LE agencies legal department is going to buy into that. It's not really idea for the civilian market either.

NickZac · Mar 27, 2014

Name Taken said:
Horrible idea really.

If it's a not a lethal force situation you shouldn't be pointing a gun at someone.

If it is a lethal force situation you shouldn't be using a Tazer unless you have someone with you with a lethal force option.

In a OH S*** situation do you really think you'll have the ability to switch from gun to Tazer and vice versa? Probably not.

No LE agencies legal department is going to buy into that. It's not really idea for the civilian market either.

I didn't even think of it in that legal sense...I figured that it would be an accessory designed to sometimes prevent the use of lethal force in bad situations where lethal force would have otherwise been used. But what you are saying makes sense...they'll try to flip it and blame the good guy.

One of the issues I am facing are many people in close proximity presenting possible challenges with projectiles. While a taser would arguably be less than ideal, some situations present simply unkosher situations even with the right ammo designed to reduce penetration.

I've been struggling to find a balance of calculated risks and what is most suitable for what scenario.

Additionally, Maryland isn't exactly a great state in terms of protecting the victims that use firearms to legally defend themselves...but I suppose that also means they aren't all the great with other forms of self defense as well?

Biggfoot44 · Mar 28, 2014

The doctrine is to keep Tasers and leathal force totally seperated.

It is total no-no in Factory sponsered Certification training , and virtually any know LE Dept policy to have an ofc deploy a Taser and a firearm simultaniously , even with seperate hands.

The Worst Case Scenario to be avoided at all costs is for an Ofc employing both to somehow , for some reason discharge a firearm *only* a Taser is called for/ legally jiustifiable.

FrankOceanXray · Mar 28, 2014

Talk to the MARC Officer in CA ... the one a sensationalized and racially charged movie was made of.... about mixing less lethal and lethal weapons.

This idea of mixing them is terrible.

There are many protocols in place to ensure the proper level of force.

joppaj · Mar 28, 2014

Add me to the group that wants no part of this.

highwayheat · Mar 28, 2014

There are potentially a few problems with attaching a taser to a firearm, especially a handgun. Can a taser cartridge fail? The answer is yes. However, a user can also miss their target with a taser cartridge. If you were to miss with just one prong then the suspect/assailant can fight through the current since the arc would not be completed. This would allow them a chance to advance on your position. Lets just speculate that you have two cartridges that both fail to function or function incorrectly. There is still the option to use a drive stun method. The problem with a drive stun is the arc is only about two inches wide. This will allow lack of mobilty in the specific area to an extent. A suspect/assailant can easily fight off a drive stun, because the taser has to remain in contact with the body. This places the suspect/assailant in your personal space and greatly reduces your reactionary gap. Therefore, if the taser is attached to a handgun then the suspect assailant has an opputunity to grab your firearm and use it on you. Also depending how a taser on a handgun is configured then there is a possiblity that the wrong trigger could be pulled discharging a live round in a situation that would be less than lethal. You have to remember what state you live in, because it seems more likely you would be charged as a suspect in an suspect/assailants death if you were not in a place to posses a loaded firearm under MD's great :sarcasm:

firearm possession laws. If you were in your residence then you would be good in a self defense situation if the suspect/assailant provoked the confrontation. On that note I'm a firm believer in the saying of "It's better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6." I think the only way you should be able to carry or use a taser is to ride the lightning. I recommend trying it at least once so you understand the full effect of a taser

. I personally prefer the taser and firearm to be two seperate units to avoid the possiblity of a tragedy.

285ferrari · Mar 28, 2014

it will NEVER happen in the LEO community

strapped · Mar 28, 2014

alucard0822 · Mar 28, 2014

It's the rubber bullet paradox, a few court cases make it a real bad idea to mix LTL and firearms(at work don't have the details handy). There is also the separation of letal and LTL tech in training, so bad idea tactically too.

The rubber bullet problem involves LTL or even non-lethal use of a firearm aka "warning shot". OC, tazers, or a firearm when deployed are considered lethal force, which requires the reasonable "fear of immediate and deadly or debilitating injury" which most all self defense statutes revolve around. The paradox is that if you are in fear for your life you will use the most powerful weapon at your disposal in the best manner you believe it will stop the threat, to do otherwise can prove you were not in fear for your life, and did not lawfully defend yourself. Basically if you are attacked, and use your taser instead of your firearm, you used deadly force, but if you were in fear for your life, you would have used the gun. If the tazer was the best you had then OK, you used the best you had, but to use second best has proven troublesome in a couple cases. The cases involved are very rare, and usually involve other agregious errors in judgement like telling the police "I didn't think they would actually attack me", and usually before a lawyer showed up. All the same, tactically you don't really stand much to gain by using the second best method to stop a deadly attack, you are not arresting, detaining, or trying to get a suspect to comply, merely stopping an attack as fast as possible.

Inigoes · Mar 28, 2014

12g tasers have been around for a couple of years

NickZac · Mar 28, 2014

I see what you guys are saying and it makes sense.

My concern comes more from a home defense sense, and due to legality above everything else. In some states, when lethal force is justified and used, the legal gun owner is protected from certain lawsuits which can ruin their life 100%. But to my understanding, that isn't nearly as much a guarantee in MD, and it seems unlikely we will see stronger laws protecting legal gun owners who use firearms in legally-justified self-defense.

Name Taken · Mar 28, 2014

NickZac said:
I see what you guys are saying and it makes sense.

My concern comes more from a home defense sense, and due to legality above everything else. In some states, when lethal force is justified and used, the legal gun owner is protected from certain lawsuits which can ruin their life 100%. But to my understanding, that isn't nearly as much a guarantee in MD, and it seems unlikely we will see stronger laws protecting legal gun owners who use firearms in legally-justified self-defense.

I've seen Tazers not be effective several times. I would not trust it in a lethal force situation without someone else having a lethal force option.

With the Tazer you need enough distance for the probes to spread. They have to go through all the clothing. And they have to stick into the subject.

Odds are inside your home with a subject advancing the Tazer is going to be useless...unless of course the little red dot scares them away.

Seen enough people take two cartridges and some drive stunning before they decided they had enough. In my house with my family I'm not going to trust that.

AlpineDude67 · Mar 29, 2014

FWIW - The police have guns and they have pepper spray. They encounter some situations where a LTL option is the right one, but they have the gun too.

I follow their lead and have the same choices available to me.

If you break into my house in the middle of the night - I am not grabbing pepper spray. If you have the balls to break into my house with me in it - I figure you are out to do me some serious harm and I'm not screwing around.

But there are all kinds of situations that might arise that are different than the worst case, breaking glass at 2AM scenario.

Own pepper spray - then you can choose how to respond to the specific situation. It is not a substitute for a firearm, but it gives you a LTL choice that you can decide to employ if you think the situation can be safely defused without the use of a firearm.

You may very well still get into trouble if you use it on somebody, but it is a whole lot better than what happens if you shoot somebody and the prosecutor decides it is unjustified.

Name Taken · Mar 29, 2014

So you plan on using OC spray in your house? Thats going to suck for everyone in the house and may very well disable your ability to defend yourself shall the attacker not be affected. I'd reconsider that option.

Minuteman · Mar 29, 2014

First thought, I like options.

Here's what Taser says about it:

For situations of uncertainty in tactical combat operations where the warfighter is confronted by a suspicious character or a potential hostile (but intent is not clear), Neuro Muscular Incapacitation (NMI) is a 21st century technology that enables the warfighter to take first action, maintain offensive momentum, be directive in his actions (rather than reactive), and drive on to mission accomplishment. With renewed emphasis on the need to minimize casualties and collateral damage, TASERs military equipment solutions are the ideal tool to achieve the end state of incapacitation of the target without the unintended consequence of loss of life. To this end, the perceived threat is removed without unnecessary killing. Additionally with the subject alive, he / she now can be questioned for information.

Within the Close Quarter Battle Space, room clearing, street patrolling, checkpoints, facility guard posts TASER International offers 2 solutions, a hand-held TASER Conducted Electrical Weapon (that can be affixed to the Picatinny rail system of an M4 or M16 rifle), as well as, Extended Range Electronic Projectiles designed for pump-action shotguns.

Minuteman · Mar 29, 2014

Inigoes said:
12g tasers have been around for a couple of years

Civilian sale, or letterhead?

Rem700fan · Mar 29, 2014

In a true self defense, scared for your life or the life of others situation, anything less than lethal is not a choice IMO. That is why I do not own pepper spray or a taser. Don't want some prosecuter asking why I did not choose to spray or tase instead of shooting.

Taser attachment for handguns...think we're close to this?

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