Colion Noir - "Philando Castile - Media Fans Flames Of Racism"

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  • cool_t_1

    Member
    Sep 14, 2016
    56
    AA County MD
    Hindsight is indeed 20/20. I have seen posters on this forum with other police incident threads state they place their hands on the top of the steering wheel in a non combative manner. Now, do you have to state you are carrying a weapon if you are CCW or is that proper courtesy to the officer- in a sense showing you are not a threat? Or do you state you have your CCW and are carrying? All I saw was that as soon as the driver stated he was carrying, the office pulled is service weapon.

    As a side note. It was weird how the girlfriend seemed calm like she was narrating a dance recital or something.

    I do feel it was a bad shoot. I think the officer had probably never been in this type of situation before and panicked.

    I think about the girlfriend as well being so calm. It all depends on what you have experienced I do not know. I cant say for her experience. But I have seen similar before from other people. As calm as can be.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    I was calm as hell while my son had a febrile seizure. I was less calm in the aftermath. Different people react in different ways to different sorts of stress. I'm not going to judge a dead man's family for how they acted while he was killed.

    My only other comment on this situation is that I'm not sure I want the ROE for cops to be "fire on anyone you think might be drawing a firearm". Soldiers in actual combat zones often can't fire unless fired upon; I don't think it's much of an ask to for a police officer to need to see a gun or other weapon before pulling the trigger on someone.
     

    MDFF2008

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 12, 2008
    24,735
    I wonder if the NRA could have come out with a 2 prong approach, promoting training materials on for civilians on "What to do if stopped while carrying" while at the same time promoting training materials for police on "Traffic Stops in Shall Issue States."

    Then they could have taken the position that they want everyone to have a safe and legal experience while carrying, police and civilian.
     

    1time

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    2,258
    Baltimore, Md
    I was calm as hell while my son had a febrile seizure. I was less calm in the aftermath. Different people react in different ways to different sorts of stress. I'm not going to judge a dead man's family for how they acted while he was killed.

    My only other comment on this situation is that I'm not sure I want the ROE for cops to be "fire on anyone you think might be drawing a firearm". Soldiers in actual combat zones often can't fire unless fired upon; I don't think it's much of an ask to for a police officer to need to see a gun or other weapon before pulling the trigger on someone.



    By the time you see the gun you don't have time to work the rest of the ooda loop before you are shot in the face. Our military works in greater numbers with full body armor capable of stopping armor piercing bullets fired from a rifle and usually at some sort of distance, all the while carrying rifles. Police are working at arms length with a vest designed to stop some handgun rounds with at best, a few officers present and a handgun.


    I would like to know why a felony stop wasn't conducted. I can tell you that in the past few years I am less likely to pull anyone, much less a minority out of a car at gun point due to perception. Anything less than being positive that I have the right car or person gets treated with "wait and see". Everyone wants police to make every contact a positive one and that seems what Yanez was trying to do. His demeanor was friendly and nice. De escalation is the catch phrase now and police are to be very careful of doing things that someone may see as escalating a situation. Pointing a gun at someone (felony stop) is a use of force, the same as shooting them with a taser or punching them in the face. Many agencies flag officer after 2 or 3 uses of force, without regard to them being justified or not. Are you going to be half way to being flagged to stop a car because and guy looks kind of like a robber but experience tells you the robber probably won't be driving by the store again. If you don't stop him you are neglectful but you would bet dinner it is not the person.

    Law enforcement used to be fairly cut and dry. You had pc or you didn't. You didn't have to be liked, only had to be correct in your actions. Now days being correct and lawful takes back seat to appearance.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    That's the way I preferred it anyway. I was always on the lookout for a gun.

    For example. Couple weeks ago I called 911 because of a woman passed out in a vehicle. A cop was the first to arrive. So here is a guy arriving at an official call (read a "stop") that put him officially contacting me. I didn't tell him I was carrying. This is almost the same thing. No need to, he was none the wiser and left 100% alive and undistracted attending to the business at hand.

    You are supposed to wait at least 3 days, longer if it's snowing:D

    Figure I'll inform if I have to, I won't if I don't need to.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    Noir is behaving exactly how the media he criticized in the O.P. The NRA needs to fire him.



    Noir had nothing to say about this video:

    I guess the white cop was scared of a white guy /sarcasm

    https://www.youtube.com/v/lr0NFyD0Nzw

    Nor did he opine about when cops kill other cops by not knowing they are a cop, or the shooting of the Military guy at Costco.



    I dont ever recall Colion making statements about shooting like this before when the races were reversed. If he had, that would show a BLIND and CONSISTENT stance on the issue regarding "use of force". That I can respect, but I don't respect people who claim they don't play the race card and then play it.

    What good does this commentary of Colion serve? If he truly believed that lighter skinned people/cops are scared of black gun owners, then WHY isn't this commentary focused on training black gun owners on how to conduct themselves when armed to AVOID stuff like this?

    You don't save black lives by acting like Al Sharpton and riling people up. You save Black Lives by educating people on the proper way to handle themselves and how they have to act when they interact with the police and others in society to prevent escalation of force.

    Black folks are NOT the only ones who have to teach their kids how to behave when interacting with law enforcement. I have taught my kids that reaching during a traffic stop is likely to get them killed. I have taught them that running their mouth only increases the possibility of detention and arrest. I have taught them to respect L.E. as they are required to respect me.

    I don't care to hear anything else from Colion or the NRA unless they cut ties with Noir.



    As far as the comments about how no one would announce a gun if they intended to shoot? Odd because it happens all of the time.

    I'm not evading...while running from the cops.

    I'm not fighting..while fighting with the cops.

    I'm not resisting..while resisting the cops.

    I'm not drunk or high while being drunk or high.

    If you want an example look up the Carry Permit Holder that shot the Pelham Police Officer in the face. The Permit Holder was telling the Police Officer how his brother was Trussville Police Officer right before he pulled the trigger.

    That trigger puller was a white pharmacist and is now on death row.

    I'll put a link for the lazy:
    http://blog.al.com/birmingham-news-stories/2009/12/pelham_officers_slaying_baffle.html
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    Here is Kopel:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...lled-philando-castile/?utm_term=.303487e76dec

    [Olson] and I have co-written three law review articles, most recently “Knives and the Second Amendment,” 47 University of Michigan Journal of Law Reform 175 (2013) (also with Clayton Cramer). I have known Olson for about a quarter-century and have interacted with him at many conferences, seminars and other meetings. He served on the NRA Board of Directors in the 1990s and leads Minnesota’s Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance.

    Olson has probably written more of the text of Minnesota gun laws than any other person. This includes the state’s right-to-carry statute, the Minnesota Citizens’ Personal Protection Act, which is one of the strongest such laws in the United States.

    In short, Olson’s report provides some evidence of a “policy or custom” of improper training, particularly for traffic stops, since any motorist may be armed (lawfully or unlawfully). Further, Olson’s meeting with the chief put the municipality on notice about the improper training.

    Olson’s experience at least suggests the possibility that the killing of Castile was not just the result of terrible decision-making by a single officer, but perhaps also the consequence of deliberate indifference by the municipality: poor training that inevitably endangered the safety of police and the public.

    Lots of mistakes by everyone here. Its hard to separate mild hints of prejudice here with just flat out bad training.
     

    fred333

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 20, 2013
    12,340
    I've twice began comments about this shooting, deciding, ultimately, that it's best not to stir the pot (again). But, being the iconoclast that I am and having a bit of experience educating people in CCW, it's time.
    Based on what I can see, I can't fault the officer. It's another of those very gray situations, which don't lend themselves to easy answers when you're standing there by the side of a road in Obamerica. Had I been that cop facing an unknown pair of black adults in a car with the male passenger announcing that he's got a "firearm" whilst continuing to move in complete disregard to my repeated instructions of "don't reach for it" and "don't pull it out", I'd like to think that I'd have the forethought to know, with 100% certainty, that this armed passenger's overruling my instructions simply because he feels the need to retrieve his license/permit and not because he's a BLM'r bent on "Pigs in a Blanket" retribution.... There's what sounds nice 'n' fuzzy in hindsight with a dose of political fashion, and there's the reality of that split-second difference between putting in your eight hours on a regular work day and death.

    It's truly sad and unfortunate that the world's where it is today, but as Jarrett Maupin so aptly stated: "People need to comply with the orders of law enforcement officers, for their own safety."
     

    redeemed.man

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 29, 2013
    17,444
    HoCo
    Someone who is going to shoot a cop is not first going to announce he has a permit and then pull the gun to shoot. To announce is not that great of an idea, to a poorly trained cop. Now every single move, as innocent as it is, will be a furtive movement for a weapon. Congrats, you've already amped up the cop(in his mind) possibly having the need to shoot you. I don't want to know on a stop if you have a gun. I'll find out soon enough when you go to pull it on me and won't stop.
     

    traveller

    The one with two L
    Nov 26, 2010
    18,262
    variable
    Officer was very calm up until Castile disclosed that he had a weapon and what appears to be movement. I wonder if things would be different if he would have presented both his DL and CCW permit. The inherent danger of so many different gun laws imposed by states make situations like this more probable. In states where CCW is more common like VA/WV/DE one would be more relaxed say MD. So many variables when put in this situation, it can turn bad real quick if there is any misunderstanding.
    [/yt]

    MN has about 200k permit holders which at 1:20 is probably average for permit states. Permits are however very uncommon in Hennepin and Ramsey county.

    Considering the levels of violence on the northside of Minneapolis and in parts of St Paul I can see how a cop in the burbs got jumpy when guy in dreads who smells like weed told him 'officer I have to tell you I have a firearm' . He didn't start out with 'here is my license, insurance and concealed handgun permit'.
     

    BMassBMore

    Active Member
    Apr 22, 2013
    167
    Baltimore
    Just one person's opinion - but IMO both were at fault. Driving around smoking weed, and not keeping your hands in plain sight - just plain stupid. Overreacting to a suspect who was polite, who had a child in the car, and who offered "I have to tell you officer that I have a firearm" (and note it wasn't "I got a gun" or "I'm strapped")... that's even worse. I don't know if it's manslaughter, but it's certainly not "innocent". Just a sad situation all around, and hopefully can be turned into a lesson for all.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    By the time you see the gun you don't have time to work the rest of the ooda loop before you are shot in the face. Our military works in greater numbers with full body armor capable of stopping armor piercing bullets fired from a rifle and usually at some sort of distance, all the while carrying rifles. Police are working at arms length with a vest designed to stop some handgun rounds with at best, a few officers present and a handgun.
    Disagree. The officer in question had backup right there. Philando sure as hell wasn't drawing a rifle from his pocket (or a handgun, but I digress). And the OODA loop certainly applies to military situations. If traffic stops are that dangerous, then the cops either need to stop making them, or work out a new procedure. I respect that they have a very difficult, sometimes dangerous job, but mistakenly shooting innocent concealed carriers to death doesn't sit well with me.
     

    GAL700

    Member
    Jun 8, 2016
    39
    AA County
    Disagree. The officer in question had backup right there. Philando sure as hell wasn't drawing a rifle from his pocket (or a handgun, but I digress). And the OODA loop certainly applies to military situations. If traffic stops are that dangerous, then the cops either need to stop making them, or work out a new procedure. I respect that they have a very difficult, sometimes dangerous job, but mistakenly shooting innocent concealed carriers to death doesn't sit well with me.

    This is a learning moment for all of us no matter who you are. We will have difference of opinion on what did and didn't happen and that's fine. But I think we can all agree that getting wrapped around the axle solely on the right to carry can be dangerous. The PITFALLS cannot be ignored when they can be deadly. Adamantly expressed by my better half, that live video within the car was horrible.
     

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