How much training do you ACTUALLY need?

I love firearms, tactical training, and the peace of mind it gives you knowing you would not be at a complete loss of brain function in a shit hit your pants scenario (hopefully).

But when we see videos, read stories, watch the news every now and again, we see successful 'self-defense in action' scenarios where the vast majority of victims involved seem largely untrained and unskilled. Convenience store robberies, home invasions thwarted by an old man with a wingmaster (NO NIGHT SIGHTS!!), guy getting stabbed with a samurai sword by a college student, and the like.

Now, I spend thousands of dollars a year on quality training from reputable instructors, the ammo for it, travel, giving up weekends with family etc. because frankly even with formal military and even better privately attained training I feel that "I'm not good enough." There's always some one faster and/or more accurate.

But truth be told unless you're a professional door-kicker, assaulter, or carry a firearm everyday as part of your workday attire, I don't think attaining the level of mastery of an IDPA Masterclass shooter or JSOC operator is necessary.

I'm writing this as I am cleaning a pistol in preparation to attend a tactical course taught by SFODA legend Bob Keller. A guy with a 1000 confirmed career hits, 14 combat deployments, and 21 years as a Delta operator/Ranger Bat dude...but I could have just gone to the Bahamas instead....

So really are we overdoing it?

Depends on ones point of view. There is no such thing as too ready, or to trained, or too prepared.

However,

Statistically speaking, the likelihood of you shooting someone in self-defense in this country is incredibly low.

So it is up to each individual to determine when the law of decreasing returns applies.

Additionally, mayhaps you are using preparedness as an excuse to justify the financial outlay for something you simply enjoy.

Boats said:

Depends on ones point of view. There is no such thing as too ready, or to trained, or too prepared.

However,

Statistically speaking, the likelihood of you shooting someone in self-defense in this country is incredibly low.

So it is up to each individual to determine when the law of decreasing returns applies.

Additionally, mayhaps you are using preparedness as an excuse to justify the financial outlay for something you simply enjoy.

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Yea I do, but I guess my larger question is how the industry itself pushes the type of mentality that unless you have a sub second drawstroke or can execute a speed reload with a hand tied behind your back and blindfolded, you are wholly unprepared to defend your life or the life of others,

When really it's probably just some once or twice a month range time coupled with dry fire every day or 2. But that wouldn't sell classes.

Luck is preparation meeting opportunity. Make yourself as lucky as you can be. The way I see it, adding skills gives you options to manage whatever comes your way. Just like with physical tools, it's better to have skills and not need them than need them and have to rely on something else instead.

With a fast draw... will you need it? Meh, maybe. But if you don't, it doesn't hurt anything to have it.

sajidakh said:

…………………..
So really are we overdoing it?

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Yes.

Been shooting guns since I was a child. The one time in my life I've had to protect myself from violent criminals I used my car to stop them, not a gun. The vast majority of violent criminals are pretty low IQ people. And in the vast majority of defensive gun use not one shot is fired. My excuse, when I was a teenager I taught my friend how to shoot guns because he told me he was going into the army and never shot a gun before. When he got back from boot camp he told me the army taught him the same thing I did. I was very proud of myself, and although I probably should take some gun/self defense classes I never have. I feel I'm capable of protecting myself in most situations. Although training can be important I've never had any because I feel like it's not necessary. Please change my mind.

I can't change your mind because I'm right there with you. My ego is perfectly fine the way it is.

Had to look up the instructor that Sajidakh mentioned ... impressive guy ...

http://gatehousenews.com/a-commandos-tale



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It's your money. You are looking at yourself and weighing your efforts. No reasonable man can fault you for that. You are a actually doing something that may help do good one day. Can't say the same for the fudds who just polish their guns, take pictures of them, or take cheap shots at people who do make an effort to train.

It all depends on how much you want to spend on insurance. You can spend a lot on insuring everything you own against every possible contingency with zero deductible, or you can accept a certain amount of risk. The more extreme the possible situations (multiple trained attackers, extreme distances, etc.) the less likely they will occur, but the amount of risk you are willing accept is a personal decision. Other people do it because they enjoy the "sport" and take pride in being skilled at something just like playing golf, or fishing, 3D chess, or doing crosswords. As long as you aren't obsessive about it and can afford the time and still put food on the table do what you enjoy.

LOL. Dude called me a fudd.

Mehh IMO you don't need to be trained to operator level what you really need in my opinion is Luck muscle memory & consistency with the basics, clear holster and accurately hit targets center mass/fail to stop in a decent time with the slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Honestly in a fight you will likely revert to gross motor functions witch is where muscle memory comes in.

An honest assessment would probably reveal it is more of a hobby for you no? If you enjoy it all (travel, training, meeting new folks, shooting, buying/upkeeping equipment, etc.) then it is more than just training. If you truly hate it then find a new hobby.

Some folks like a brand new Honda Civic to drive to work. Others love the frustration of a late 70's Porsche.

Do you "need" all he training? I doubt it. Since guns have been made folks have used them effectively and many had little to know "tactical training" in the sense of thousands of rounds being fired.

Interesting question and one I have pondered many times. It's sort of like asking how large of a magazine capacity do you need? or How many spare magazines should you carry? You won't know until you need to know.

The OP is right that many (countless) people defend themselves with little to no training. How? Well, for one thing, some crook mistook them for an easy mark and did not expect resistance. Mindset (don't be a victim). Just having a gun. And luck.

As someone who, over the last 6 years has accrued 500 hours of training in handgun/carbine/shotgun/edged weapons/unarmed combatives/medical/legal aspects of self-defense/firearms instructor/active shooter instructor training (I'll have close to 600 at the end of this year), there is definitely a point of diminishing returns with classes. Do I learn things in all of them? Yes! But I learn less and less with each class.

I've recently fallen under the tutelage of a mentor who is a true been-there, done-that guy, a guy who is both ex-military and ex-intel community. 40+(?) years of service, shot people and been shot at, and often had to operate low-viz without a firearm. He brought me into a training group that he runs, watched me shoot on that first occasion for about 2 minutes, and told me "don't take another square range class. You're good enough." As he said, a guy like Gabe White needs a sub-second draw and blazing fast split times because he's going to be operating from a deficit (he wasn't picking on Gabe White, but just the skill level). A guy who just sits there and practices that stuff but lacks the AWARENESS to see stuff coming will need that kind of speed. My "friend" does not, because he'll see it coming. Thus, he told me I need to start taking classes where I am thinking/problem-solving with a gun in my hand, and this has been a heavy factor as I have started to register for classes for 2019. Most BTDT people will say that the "shooting" part of self-defense is maybe 10% of the issue; the rest is problem-solving.

But do I NEED all of that? Probably not. If I was going to advise someone just starting out, I'd tell them to take NRA Basic Pistol, maybe the Inside and Outside the Home classes, take their state-mandated CCW class (if their state has one), and then take Tom Givens' 2 Day Combative Pistol class. Then just practice the stuff learned in that class. Givens has had 66 of his students get into DGUs and 63 were victorious. The 3 who were not were unarmed the day they needed their guns. In those 63 successes, his students have an over 90% hit rate, none have been prosecuted or sued in civil court, and I think 3 were lightly wounded.


The fact is, for many of us, this does indeed become a hobby. Traveling just a bit (even just one state over), meeting the instructors and fellow students, a weekend away from the family doing something you enjoy, maybe trying out other's equipment, etc. Sounds like a hobby to me. I'm okay with that.

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So, of course we (who pay attention, read the blogs inclined to cover the topic, etc) generally find out quickly when someone - super trained or noob - uses a personal weapon to defend themselves. I'm sure there's a certain amount of confirmation bias going on, but: how often do we see stories about someone carrying and failing to succeed in mitigating a situation and defending themselves? Or killing a bystander? Of course those things happen in some small percentage of confrontations, but my take on it is that it's minimal. Actual encounters of this kind are rare to begin with, and the hyper-trained individuals are (seat of the pants, here!) only marginally more likely to succeed in running off a bad guy than is a noob. Which is NOT me dismissing training (man, do I want more than I've bothered with so far), but recognizing that it really does have more to do with rules of engagement, situational awareness, and a grasp of legal consequences than it does with lightning fast draws and 3" groups at 15 yards instead of 6" groups.

I honestly don't recall the last time I read of a dead or badly injured person who was reported as having been carrying, but couldn't put it to work. I'm sure it happens. But enough to justify monthly mortgage level training expenses for most people? Can't imagine it. Sort of like saying you need a fancy bass boat and a huge monthly fuel budget so you can have fish to eat. We are masters of rationalization! I'm guilty, too. It's OK to just say, "I really like the social aspects and personal gratification of getting better at something I find compelling - whether it's bowling, bass fishing, or making tricky targets go clang under a timer." Honestly, sometimes I think our BGOS inspires an almost over-the-top drive to be seen enjoying guns and shootings in the context of hyper readiness and vigilance so we never have to confess that we just think it's freakin' fun.

Keller is the true definition of operator but 1000 confirmed hits. How does anyone confirm this. Who does this. Do you stop the gun fight to tally hits.

I bet he didn’t put that in his bio.

Occam said:

I honestly don't recall the last time I read of a dead or badly injured person who was reported as having been carrying, but couldn't put it to work.

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This event came to my mind.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Las_Vegas_shootings

BRONZ said:

Keller is the true definition of operator but 1000 confirmed hits. How does anyone confirm this. Who does this. Do you stop the gun fight to tally hits.

I bet he didn’t put that in his bio.

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I don't think hits means kills. I think it means "ops", as in "hits on targets", where the target might be a house where intel says a bad guy is located.

hogarth said:

I don't think hits means kills. I think it means "ops", as in "hits on targets", where the target might be a house where intel says a bad guy is located.

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Yes sorry that's exactly what it means...he mentioned over 700 daylight and 300 low viz