Powder coating

Archeryrob · Dec 21, 2020

I was reading today and trying to get everything for loading 45 colt and tripped over this. I want to cast and load 9mm bullets, eventually, and started down this rabbit hole. The more I read the less I true understand WTF people are doing. I can't find a clear, concise, reason or what they are doing and it bothers me.

I read about specific hardness for 9mm bullets and then they they powder coat for a replacement for lube. But they never state the hardness number.
Another states they cast soft lead and powder coat makes it better.
Another states Powder coats stops leading of the barrel. (hard or soft lead? They didn't say)
Another states soft lead just deforms and looses accuracy as the pressures for the loads deforms the bullet.

I finish with who TF actually knew what they we talking about? The last one made the most sense, though.

So I come here.
1. If I cast 9MM Bullets, what do I need to aim for a specific hardness?
2. If hard enough, can they be shot naked?
3. Or do they need clothes, powder coating?
4. Do the clothes help, or just make them look Purdy?

Trigger Time · Dec 21, 2020

Well I can answer #2 and say No don't shoot any naked lead.

One book that really explains the basics of reloading and casting your own bullets very well is Richard Lee's Modern Reloading.

John from MD · Dec 21, 2020

So I come here.
1. If I cast 9MM Bullets, what do I need to aim for a specific hardness?
Not if you powder coat them. If you want to go the traditional way, the lead bullet must be hard enough for the pressure you are using. I shoot range scrap or wheelweights sized to .356 and tumble lubed with White Labs XLOX 45-45-10 lube. No leading.

2. If hard enough, can they be shot naked?
Yes, see above. If too hard, they can also cause leading.

3. Or do they need clothes, powder coating?
Powder coating makes the lead alloy less critical. It also has less smoke and powder coating is faster than lubricating bullets.

4. Do the clothes help, or just make them look Purdy?[/QUOTE]
Powder coating gives you more flexibility with your alloy
and it is faster to do vs traditional lubrication.

Just one note. Not all barrels will shoot lead bullets without some tweaking. I am not talking about Poly barrels, they shoot lead just fine. I am talking about bullets that have no lead like S&W M&P barrels .

When there is no lead, if you load to the COAL recommended, you may wind up with failure to go into battery. Or, if a bullet chambers and you try to pull the slide back, you may pull the case away from the bullet. I have mostly found this on .380 and 9x19 chambered guns.

Melnic · Dec 21, 2020

I'm not the expert like John but seems like scrap wheel weight lead is easier to come by and the stuff I've traded for or gifted was about 10-15 BH
Pure soft lead is like 5BH

If you've read recent threads there was a discussion about Soft lead in PC bullets. Look for it.

Powder coating will stop leading. Soft or hard, it stops leading if PC is properly applied, bullet sized right and barrel is not crap.

Me, I use 10-15BH lead for 9mm and powder coat it. My Polygonal factory G17 shoots it great.
I had ZERO luck with the Hi-Tek Coating. It ripped off and leaded one of my barrels. PC was much more forgiving IMO

You want something a lot of people use? Wheel weight 10-15BH lead and Powder coat it at .356 sized or Wheel weight 10-15BH lead and Xlox coated sized at .356

Xlox is cheap and easy to apply, no reason to go naked lead

Archeryrob · Dec 22, 2020

The only 9mm guns in the house are a G17, G19 and a Springfield XD compact.

So, I could shoot shot soft lead through the with Powder coating? I have soft lead that I use for Lee Reals, round balls and 45LC hear soon. I also have a lot wheel weight bars/shotgun shot and scrap that was consigned for fishing weights and I'll never use that much.

I can buy a mold and powder coat the bullets when I get to 9mm later this year. I will be casting and pan lubing the 45LC bullets,

Which should I use the soft or hard lead?
A short read and it sounds like that XLOX stays soft and waxy, is that true? (This will leave a soft waxy coating over your entire bullets.)
If above I fear the girls are going to complain about waxy bullets, would powder coating be better on harder lead?

If I use the hard lead I can cut it with soft. I can aim for 10 - 15 hardness and cut it if too hard and can I test it after casting and cooling? Is any powder coat I find acceptable or have to use a special kind for bullets?

Brickman301 · Dec 22, 2020

Lots of variables. I’ll try to help.

Do not shoot any lead bullets naked. Doing so will lead up your barrel.

From my understanding you want to load 45 colt?
I’ve you are planning on shooting smokeless powder “cowboy loads” with velocities of 800FPS or less, powder coated pure lead bullets will work just fine. I do it all the time.

Harder lead, with traditional lube at those velocities and higher will also be fine.

Traditional lube is kinda tacky and can be messy. Traditional lube will also leave a “smoke trail”, when they are shot. Powder coating is nether sticky or leaves smoke, when shot.

Some people say powder coating is faster. I’m not sure if that is the case or not? I do both powder coating and traditional lube, both methods take time. If using a lubesizer, I’d say traditional lube is a little bit faster.

Hopefully, this helps you.

Brickman301 · Dec 22, 2020

Ok so I reread your post.

Sure, you can powder coat the harder lead, that would work just fine.

Yes, you could also cut your harder lead with softer lead, and powder coat, or use traditional lube.

I would load about 25 rounds or so if using your mixture of hard and soft lead with traditional lube.
Shoot these loads, and check your barrel for leading afterwards. If there is no leading, then that combination at those velocities work for you.

It’s kind of a trial and error, type thing.

I personally use powder coating no mater what the hardness of lead I’m shooting.
The only time I still use traditional lubes, is when I’m shooter black cartridges, or for muzzleloaders.

Todd S · Dec 22, 2020

This has lots of great info.

John from MD · Dec 22, 2020

If you shoot cowboy loads in your .45, you don't want to use real hard lead when using traditional lubes as you will get gas cutting that will cause leading. This occurs because the harder bullet won't obdurate or 'Bump Up' to fill the bore. This is not an issue with powder coating as the baked on paint withstands the hot gases and never gets to the lead. Another thing about powder coating is that it usually adds .001 to.002 thickness to the bullet. Very rarely do I size my .44's and .45's because the cylinder mouths in my guns are cut to either .432 or .4525 to allow the bullets to size themselves.

You can't do this with some 9mm guns unless you put a barrel made for lead bullets in them. They don't have enough lead to transition from the chamber to the bore. The only thing to do with them is to vary your COAL and loads so that the gun feeds.

Making and shooting lead bullets takes time to learn as it is more complicated than it seems. Luckily, today there is the internet where information is readily available at your finger tips.

Melnic · Dec 22, 2020

Archeryrob,
I did ran both wheel weight lead and soft lead powder coated through my polygonal rifled G17. Soft lead did not do good at all (I shoot Torso steel targets at 25 yards). Soft lead gets lots of flyers but I did not have any leading. So my personal experiance with the G17 is not to use Soft Lead, but use harder lead.

I use soft lead with alox/(xlox now) 45 flat points for my 45 colt cowboy loads I shoot through a 45 colt as well as 45 Colt conversion cylinders for BP pistols

Brickman301 · Dec 22, 2020

I don’t cast or reload for 9mm, but I do shoot powder coated lead bullets from a 9mm carbine, and one Star Pistol.

There is/was a company that was an IP here, named TomKat ammo. They load a 158 grain powder coated lead 9mm load. I’ve shot thousands of these rounds without issues. This is a very heavy bullet for the 9mm, so the velocity is low. I’ve had very good luck with them. No leading, no issues with feeding or cycling. They are accurate and low on noise.

All that said, I’m not sure if the lead is hard or soft. I might just have to break one down, to see how hard the lead is.

Archeryrob · Dec 22, 2020

Soft lead will be on my 452 bullets and pan lubed in deer fat/BW 50/50 and shot out of converted piettas.

Hard lead will be for 9mm bullets and I'll PC them. What hardness should I strive to be at? Don't know a lot about testing lead except it might case harden sitting around, is that true? I'll buy a hardness tester. Can I test the ingots as they sit now on my work bench for a couple years?

Brickman301 · Dec 22, 2020

Archeryrob said:
Soft lead will be on my 452 bullets and pan lubed in deer fat/BW 50/50 and shot out of converted piettas.

Hard lead will be for 9mm bullets and I'll PC them. What hardness should I strive to be at? Don't know a lot about testing lead except it might case harden sitting around, is that true? I'll buy a hardness tester. Can I test the ingots as they sit now on my work bench for a couple years?

I’d try straight wheel weight lead powder coated in 9mm. I’d also try a 50/50 mix of wheel weight and pure lead then powder coat them. You could also harden up your 50/50 lead mixture by water quenching them.
You can also bake them in a oven and let them air cool, that will also harden them up.
You can NOT harden pure lead with these methods.

Yes, letting any lead bullets that are not pure lead will get harder as they age. In most cases it isn’t a lot, and will eventually not get any harder. I don’t worry about this myself. I also don’t worry about the hardness of my mixed lead bullets. I just follow alloying recipes from others, and call it close enough.
Like I stated before, powder coating, and bullet fit lets you get away with softer lead alloys.

Biggfoot44 · Dec 22, 2020

1. Bullet Casting ( & related loading and shooting of cast bullets ) is at least as much Art as Science .

2. There are multiple ( seemingly contradictory ) approaches that can work sucuessfully .

3. Any approach , even those widely used and generally accepted , can at times seemingly illogically , give poor results in particular instances .

4. No matter how many variables you take into account , there are a crapload of even more variables .

**************************

Think of Powder Coating as simultaneously being sort of bullet lube , and sort of a quasi bullet jacket . Potentially , Powder Coating combined with certain alloys could do certain thing beyond the capabilities of conventionally lubed bullets , but that's farther out in the weeds .

********************

For 9x19 , conventional wisdom ranges from hard to Really Hard ( both in regards to the pressures and feeding issues ).

Yes , some sort of lube or lube equivalent is mandatory .

Yes indeed , powder coating can be colorful , but it serves functions other than looking pretty . You could do basic black , or dark grey if you prefer .

outrider58 · Dec 22, 2020

Damn you Rob. Now I want to try this. :envy:

Biggfoot44 · Dec 22, 2020

I've told Mrs Biggfoot and Littlefoot44 to be on the lookout for used toaster ovens at yard sales, etc . But either they're not out there , or I'm being ignored

Archeryrob · Dec 22, 2020

outrider58 said:
Damn you Rob. Now I want to try this.

Come on up. I got a lead pot, a dipper, toaster oven and a beer fridge in the garage. We can make it a party. I still need a 9mm mold and powder still, so we might have to extend the start date.

I ordered a 45 lc mold and it 10 -1 4 days before they can ship. :rolleyes:

No wonder they still got stock. Oh yea, lets not talk about small pistol primers right now.

We get some loaded and I have a 20 yard range off the patio with a 10" and 6" plates and under a covered roof it its raining.

Biggfoot44 said:
I've told Mrs Biggfoot and Littlefoot44 to be on the lookout for used toaster ovens at yard sales, etc . But either they're not out there , or I'm being ignored

They will show. Mostly people don't like having them when its cold.

Archeryrob · Dec 22, 2020

Do you size before or after PCing the bullets?

Brickman301 · Dec 22, 2020

Archeryrob said:
Do you size before or after PCing the bullets?

After

Melnic · Dec 22, 2020

Archeryrob,
Read through this:
https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=242694

Hightlights:
Powderbythepound.com for Powder (it sticks way better than cheap PC from Harbor Freight)
Shake/swish in Tupperware container with the /5\ recycling symbol
Toaster Oven 400F for 20 minutes
Fine mesh Chicken wire screens for trays

Powder coating

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