Let's Discuss Burner Phones

ToolAA · Aug 23, 2021

JimNorth said:
Sorry. I'm still not clear. Once you make that first call, then you're tracked. And the call recipient is tracked. Is that OK in your scenario? If not, you need multiple devices, multiple SIM cards and multiple plan PINs for each call.

I agree that once the first call is made that phone number and phone is now trackable. In my hypothetical scenario only a few calls would be necessary. However if used properly, those calls are still not associated with my personal identity. Am I understanding this last part incorrectly?

ToolAA · Aug 23, 2021

bibitor said:
I think the bigger question is anonymous from who?

That’s a great question. I don’t think we know who is recording this information and for what purposes. In my mind there are people who may have been in the
vicinity of the protest/riots in Minneapolis or the Jan 6th DC protest/riot, yet had no material involvement. Do you think that their cell phone metadata might now be in the hands of some investigative agency? How far fetched is that question?

bibitor · Aug 23, 2021

ToolAA said:
I agree that once the first call is made that phone number and phone is now trackable. In my hypothetical scenario only a few calls would be necessary. However if used properly, those calls are still not associated with my personal identity. Am I understanding this last part incorrectly?

This is heavily dependent on factors that may be outside of your control. Where are the calls being placed from? What is your relationship with the person(s) you would be calling? What is the physical location history of the 'burner' phone prior to use? Etc...

bibitor · Aug 23, 2021

ToolAA said:
That’s a great question. I don’t think we know who is recording this information and for what purposes. In my mind there are people who may have been in the
vicinity of the protest/riots in Minneapolis or the Jan 6th DC protest/riot, yet had no material involvement. Do you think that their cell phone metadata might now be in the hands of some investigative agency? How far fetched is that question?

It most certainly is and it is not a far fetched question at all.

ToolAA · Aug 23, 2021

bibitor said:
This is heavily dependent on factors that may be outside of your control. Where are the calls being placed from? What is your relationship with the person(s) you would be calling? What is the physical location history of the 'burner' phone prior to use? Etc...

This is the part that I’m starting to understand. The device must never be activated at places connected to your identity (Work, Home, relatives, etc.). Most likely the person I would be calling was my wife, parents or closest friends. In that case, the scenario would be that hypothetical emergency.

JohnnyE · Aug 23, 2021

I would think that the truly effective way to use a burner phone to preserve anonymity is to make calls from your burner phone only to other burner phones. If any phone in a conversation is linked to a specific individual, it is only a matter of time until the identity of the owner of the burner phone is teased out...if they really want YOU.

ironpony · Aug 24, 2021

Tool, you’re going to an anti gun rally and don’t want us to find out aren’t you LOL

Sundazes · Aug 24, 2021

ToolAA said:
This is the part that I’m starting to understand. The device must never be activated at places connected to your identity (Work, Home, relatives, etc.). Most likely the person I would be calling was my wife, parents or closest friends. In that case, the scenario would be that hypothetical emergency.

But you would be calling the exact people that "they" would be watching in order to find you. If they same number pops on all of your loved ones, chances are it ain't about a new car warranty. "They" might not know it is you calling, however, you can bet you bottom dollar "they" will have that number now and start tracking it.
In thin scenario, you would need multiple burners to activate from multiple locations.
One call and done....

Harrys · Aug 24, 2021

There is no such thing as a burner phone, the phone is still traceable by its number, GPS via satellite not just cell towers. Yes there is no name typically attached but it is still very traceable. Also interceptor cell towers are in use by our Government and illegal entities which spoof real cell towers gleaning everything you said. If it is digital it is traceable and if a cell phone is used for nefarious deeds use it once and destroy it. Then get a new one that is what the criminals are doing.

ToolAA · Aug 24, 2021

Harrys said:
There is no such thing as a burner phone, the phone is still traceable by its number, GPS via satellite not just cell towers.

The GPS data is not traceable via satellite. The GPS coordinates are included in some metadata assuming the GPS functionality is turned on.

Yes there is no name typically attached but it is still very traceable.

I think my point of this discussion is to determine under what circumstances the communication can be disconnected from a persons identity if at all. Additionally are there circumstances where an entity might suspect the unknown number was a call from you, is that the same thing as an actual call from a phone registered to your personal name and address. Many of us here discuss multiple layers of personal security in our homes. Is a deadbolt into a steel frame better than cheap self closing latch screwed into a wood frame? Sure. But we all know that if someone really wants to breech the door they will find a way. However we can all agree there is still value to the extra layer, even if it just buys you a little more time to respond to the threat or emergency.

Also interceptor cell towers are in use by our Government and illegal entities which spoof real cell towers gleaning everything you said.

You are referring to Stingray and yes it appears that they can indeed record the contents of calls and messages. There is no good way to avoid this type of government spying except to avoid using a cell phone entirely. However I think it’s use is still fairly limited to high traffic areas and potentially considered an illegal invasion of privacy without a warrant.

If it is digital it is traceable and if a cell phone is used for nefarious deeds use it once and destroy it. Then get a new one

This seems to be the consensus for anyone wanting the highest level of privacy protection. Probably not feasible, however I still believe there is a valid use case for potentiality very limited emergency situations.

Harrys · Aug 25, 2021

ToolAA said:
The GPS data is not traceable via satellite. The GPS coordinates are included in some metadata assuming the GPS functionality is turned on.

Well you may be behind the power curve on satellite GPS tracking of phones not only for location but for listening. That is all I can say if you get my drift.

ToolAA · Aug 25, 2021

Harrys said:
Well you may be behind the power curve on satellite GPS tracking of phones not only for location but for listening. That is all I can say if you get my drift.

Please don’t take my response as an attack on your knowledge or experience. My reply has one goal, the pursuit of genuine knowledge.

Is there any sort of public technical article or discussion link you can provide to support this statement. I’m fully aware that phone position can be tracked using multiple methods. GPS satellite systems are used in combination with software installed on the actual device to send data over the cellular network to report the device position.

Are you saying that satellite systems exist to somehow spy on a users device directly, without the aid of software on the users device, or the transmission of data over the cellular network?

That seems to be a technical impossibly unless the mobile device has a transmitter that is designed to specifically transmit signals which are able to be received by the satellite system. This would be similar to a system like Iridium.

blackdoggactual · Aug 25, 2021

Can you help me understand why someone would need a burner phone? Who is it that you don’t want to know who you are or where you are? Just don’t understand.

huesmann · Aug 25, 2021

TheBert said:
3rd rule: When you want to use your burner phone turn off your cell phone, drive 15 miles away from where you turned off your cell phones. Turn on your burner phone, make your call then turn off your burner phone. Then drive 15 miles and you can then turn on your cell phone.

And make sure it's a different 15 miles every time.

nezumi · Aug 25, 2021

Interesting thread.

A quick (hopefully obvious) note; a burner phone doesn't work if all of your contact numbers are only available on your normal phone.

I'm not sure how long you plan to wait between uses, especially if it's hidden in a cache somewhere. Lithium batteries don't last forever, especially with temperature changes. For almost every phone battery model, you can buy a battery charger online. Store the phone in a waterproof place where-ever, and charge up the battery as-needed at home.

The other stuff posted makes sense. I especially like lifting old phones from recycling. For one, it's cheap. For two, you can pick up multiple phones to experiment and practice with, then return them to recycling before getting a 'real' phone.

ToolAA · Aug 25, 2021

blackdoggactual said:
Can you help me understand why someone would need a burner phone? Who is it that you don’t want to know who you are or where you are? Just don’t understand.

Today there is nobody specifically that I feel the need to hide from. I use my cell phone all of the time for most of my daily and business activities, including mobile banking, personal email and posting this very response.

However, the prepping goal is to have to have a plan and the tools in place to deal with an unexpected problem, that just might happen in the future, before you need it.

Can you envision a possible scenario where a government or state agency conducting an investigation based on a broad sweeping data collection of mobile devices in a specific area? It doesn’t seem too far fetched to me. How about this scenario. You are driving through the city and then find yourself surrounded by a group of protesters who seem intent on flipping your car over and then lighting it on fire while you are inside. You step on the gas and run a few over. Maybe in the minutes after that event as you flee the scene, you want to make a call to someone who might be able to help you figure out what to do, or maybe the call is to the 911. You can bet that the deck is already stacked against you from a defense standpoint, why make the the prosecutors job easier. Using a phone that is not traced to your identity at that very moment might be a good choice. You just don’t know.

dblas · Aug 25, 2021

Harrys said:
Well you may be behind the power curve on satellite GPS tracking of phones not only for location but for listening. That is all I can say if you get my drift.

The current and future GPS constellation has no way to receive signals from cellphones at the power they put out, nor on the frequencies they transmit on, either now or in the future.

I work in this realm, and have off and on over the past 30+ years and have yet to have any info on satellites being able to do so directly.

ToolAA · Aug 25, 2021

nezumi said:
A quick (hopefully obvious) note; a burner phone doesn't work if all of your contact numbers are only available on your normal phone.

I do keep a paper list of important phone numbers in my emergency bag. However, I’ve been thinking about this problem and I think it makes sense to actually memorize some of the important numbers and actually make some calls using the keypad instead of just clicking on the name in my contact list.

I'm not sure how long you plan to wait between uses, especially if it's hidden in a cache somewhere.

I have some handheld ham radios that will hold a charge for 3+ months or more. I’m thinking if I could get 1-3 months out of a device that was powered off all of the time that would probably be sufficient.

ironpony · Aug 26, 2021

Some time back there was a discussion on MDS about possible stingrays set up at gun shows.
IIRC also gun buyback locations for people manufacturing $25 shotguns at Home Depot then “selling” them for that $150 gift card.

ICBW.

slsc98 · Aug 26, 2021

I can likely / seriously need to benefit from this thread;

What little I know about burners, I learned from The Wire …

Let's Discuss Burner Phones

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