ATF Coming After Firearms with Stabilizing Braces

Occam · Aug 23, 2021

outrider58 said:
A brief synopsis for those of us following along on or cell phones?

A nice slate of state AGs argue that the prospective rule change exceeds the Gun Control Act's statutory boundaries, and is thus straight up unconstitutional. They also get into the endless practical absurdities of the proposed rule's ramifications, and also mention the business-destroying aspects of it. Mainly, though, it's a satisfyingly thorough tutorial on how the proposed rule looks a lot more like a new LAW that congress isn't authoring or approving, and thus it's not going to withstand constitutional scrutiny in court.

Also, a decent history lesson on "receivers" and on the centuries long tradition of home-built guns and the fact those were explicitly preserved in the GCA, while this rule seeks to stomp that out of existence via executive fiat.

The AGs make a compelling case that this won't stand in court. The ATF, of course, is just doing what the administration says, knowing full well that the entire purpose of this is to make people who generally speaking are their political opponents miserable by any convenient method, this being one of them.

outrider58 · Aug 23, 2021

budman93 said:
looks like 20 state AGs have submitted objections to the proposed rule to expand the definition of what is a firearm receiver.

Thank you sir. :thumbsup:

Docster · Aug 23, 2021

So, are folks stocking up like the Polymer 80s?

jcutonilli · Aug 23, 2021

Comments for the NPRM on stabilizing braces are due on or before 8 Sept
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/factoring-criteria-firearms-attached-stabilizing-braces

Rockzilla · Aug 25, 2021

interesting... disarm us and make up new rules / regulations

when the same government supplies.....

Screen-Shot-2016-12-01-at-9.51.42-AM.jpg

MigraineMan · Sep 7, 2021

jcutonilli said:
Comments for the NPRM on stabilizing braces are due on or before 8 Sept
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/factoring-criteria-firearms-attached-stabilizing-braces

Bumpity-bump.

If you consider yourself a red-blooded American Patriot, and if you are concerned about this country going to hell in a handbasket ... do something. You can start with baby-steps. Click the link below, hit the COMMENT button, and enter a simple comment like "The BATFE's proposed rulemaking ATF 2021R-08 attempts to expand the Bureau's authority beyond what is defined in the NFA and GCA. Doing so requires legislative changes, not Bureau policy statements." Validate yourself and submit your comment. But you need to do it now ... the deadline is Wednesday September 8th.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/ATF-2021-0002-0001

And if you're looking for entertainment, grab the AFT's form 4999 and see how many points you can score on the following accessory:

Nickberg500 · Sep 9, 2021

Here's my letter, 978 words, 2 pages, single spaced. I tried to hit every angle I could think of in the time I had. I tried to make my submission unique as possible, with points other gunowners probably haven't thought of.

babalou · Sep 9, 2021

awesome

Nickberg500 said:
Here's my letter, 978 words, 2 pages, single spaced. I tried to hit every angle I could think of in the time I had. I tried to make my submission unique as possible, with points other gunowners probably haven't thought of.

Excellent!!! :party29:

what is sad about your page references is that they would probably have to go look themselves because they do not know.

Nickberg500 · Sep 9, 2021

babalou said:
Excellent!!!

what is sad about your page references is that they would probably have to go look themselves because they do not know.

Thanks man!

Doctor_M · Sep 9, 2021

Nickberg500 said:
Here's my letter, 978 words, 2 pages, single spaced. I tried to hit every angle I could think of in the time I had. I tried to make my submission unique as possible, with points other gunowners probably haven't thought of.

Well done... I submitted mine early in the process but hit a number of similar points. Thanks to everyone who stood up to oppose this and the receiver proposed reg. I'm not optimistic about the outcome, but this is the very least we can do.

JMangle · Sep 11, 2021

Nickberg500 said:
Here's my letter, 978 words, 2 pages, single spaced. I tried to hit every angle I could think of in the time I had. I tried to make my submission unique as possible, with points other gunowners probably haven't thought of.

You make 2 good points that I hadn't seen before (well, 1 modification reframed as a unique point, and 1 completely new point.)

1) Many have noted people with disabilities, but you make a very good point about the differences in body-shape. Even if my wife didn't have medical issues getting close to capital D disabled, the proportions of a rifle tailored to her size would be completely different than my 6'4", 225 lb body - and she's actually very large-of-frame compared to other women of Korean ancestry.

Taking it a step further, because I didn't really think about it in this light - would some children-tailored rifles catch the ire of this rule? Give an AR pistol to a properly supervised young shooter and it's a very reasonable scaled-down training rifle. I frequently recommend parents teaching their kids to shoot putting a drop-in 22LR conversion in an AR. An AR pistol would probably be even better suited.

2) I had not considered the various left-wing anti-police sentiments. The side of the spectrum that is usually all about more government power seems to be saying 'enough' - at least when it comes to giving law enforcement more power. It's enough to make someone tilt their head and think a bit more than the similar points that most others have made.

One of the points that I made, which I didn't see directly mentioned in the few dozen comments I read, is why is the ATF asking for more NFA weapons being added to the registry? Their narrative seems to be, "If you want an SBR, get an SBR," even though they are completely incapable of processing NFA paperwork in a timely manner. I tired to make my tone seem as if I was looking out for the ATF, rather than scolding them for being incompetent and slow, but if it takes nearly a year to clear my Silencer (their term, not mine) paperwork, why would they ever want more work on their desk? (I didn't put in in my comment, but it strikes me as laughable that a full background check to work at a nuclear power plant takes maybe a week (not exactly sure, didn't really time them) and the nuclear background check is DEEP.

About a year after working at my first nuclear plant I was at a wedding, and was introduced to someone I hadn't met before- they heard my name and that I worked at a nuke plant and said that they had gotten a call from an investigator asking what they knew about my background. If the nuclear industry can investigate my background so deeply that they are interviewing people I hadn't even met in just a matter of a few weeks, how is the ATF taking a year? (I know, I know, the ATF's background only takes a short period of time, it's all just intentional delay tactics to discourage NFA weapon purchase.)

What a world when so many 'Americans' are willing to blindly trust such a corrupt and inept bureaucracy be the gatekeeper to not only our freedoms, but the apparent ability to make millions of people felons overnight. :sad20:

Nickberg500 · Sep 13, 2021

Doctor_M said:
Well done... I submitted mine early in the process but hit a number of similar points. Thanks to everyone who stood up to oppose this and the receiver proposed reg. I'm not optimistic about the outcome, but this is the very least we can do.

JMangle said:
You make 2 good points that I hadn't seen before (well, 1 modification reframed as a unique point, and 1 completely new point.)

1) Many have noted people with disabilities, but you make a very good point about the differences in body-shape. Even if my wife didn't have medical issues getting close to capital D disabled, the proportions of a rifle tailored to her size would be completely different than my 6'4", 225 lb body - and she's actually very large-of-frame compared to other women of Korean ancestry.

Taking it a step further, because I didn't really think about it in this light - would some children-tailored rifles catch the ire of this rule? Give an AR pistol to a properly supervised young shooter and it's a very reasonable scaled-down training rifle. I frequently recommend parents teaching their kids to shoot putting a drop-in 22LR conversion in an AR. An AR pistol would probably be even better suited.

2) I had not considered the various left-wing anti-police sentiments. The side of the spectrum that is usually all about more government power seems to be saying 'enough' - at least when it comes to giving law enforcement more power. It's enough to make someone tilt their head and think a bit more than the similar points that most others have made.

One of the points that I made, which I didn't see directly mentioned in the few dozen comments I read, is why is the ATF asking for more NFA weapons being added to the registry? Their narrative seems to be, "If you want an SBR, get an SBR," even though they are completely incapable of processing NFA paperwork in a timely manner. I tired to make my tone seem as if I was looking out for the ATF, rather than scolding them for being incompetent and slow, but if it takes nearly a year to clear my Silencer (their term, not mine) paperwork, why would they ever want more work on their desk? (I didn't put in in my comment, but it strikes me as laughable that a full background check to work at a nuclear power plant takes maybe a week (not exactly sure, didn't really time them) and the nuclear background check is DEEP.

About a year after working at my first nuclear plant I was at a wedding, and was introduced to someone I hadn't met before- they heard my name and that I worked at a nuke plant and said that they had gotten a call from an investigator asking what they knew about my background. If the nuclear industry can investigate my background so deeply that they are interviewing people I hadn't even met in just a matter of a few weeks, how is the ATF taking a year? (I know, I know, the ATF's background only takes a short period of time, it's all just intentional delay tactics to discourage NFA weapon purchase.)

What a world when so many 'Americans' are willing to blindly trust such a corrupt and inept bureaucracy be the gatekeeper to not only our freedoms, but the apparent ability to make millions of people felons overnight.

Thanks guys. The leftist piece I think was crucial as nobody calls out the hypocrisy of "defund the police" "but not these ones who go after gunowners".

I also tried the armor piercing ammo route. If they're going to ban the guns that shoot AP ammo... Maybe deregulation should be a part of the rule change.

They always chitter about compromise but never actually deliver on their end, just take take take.

JMangle · Sep 13, 2021

Nickberg500 said:
I also tried the armor piercing ammo route. If they're going to ban the guns that shoot AP ammo... Maybe deregulation should be a part of the rule change.

Man, don't get me started on "Armor Piercing Ammo" and the history of all that.
* Movies where a handgun can shoot through a bulldozer blade because of a bullet coating intended to make a barrel last longer. (One of the Lethal Weapon films - "Cop Killuh [sic] Bullets" was the line.)
* Attempts to ban basically all rifle ammo, because it can all go through armor, depending on the level.
* All the hysteria over the 5.7x28 ammo, .357 SIG, etc.
* Bans on the imports of green-tip ammo. Shoot, now all Russian ammo will soon be banned.

The guys at work today (mainly the Union workers who have considerable protection from HR) were figuratively up in arms (perhaps would have been literally so if we weren't at work) over the forced vaccination rule - basically everyone has made the connection between the far-left wanting no police to protect us, no weapons to save ourselves, and forcing inoculations like cattle. (I'm vaccinated, I advise people get the shot, but I'm not forcing anyone.) It all just seems to be a series of probing attempts to see how much we'll endure. They're probably waiting for someone to snap and then pass a bunch of laws targeting anyone who questions anything they say.

This ATF overreach on the stabilizing braces has had several beneficial consequences that I doubt they expected:
* A wonderful case and point of the ATF saying something is OK then after it becomes popular they ban it.
* 6-10 million, I think I heard, stabilizing braces in existence - that means we'll get a good legal test of "in common use" (I'm not a lawyer, so if you think I'm wrong, correct me.)
* See the above number - how many will comply?
* You can't try to round up the non-compliers, even if 90% comply, and it's only 6 million in existence, and then if 99% hand them over without issue, that still makes 6,000 Ruby Ridges. And the Weavers just wanted to be left alone (not saying they weren't racists, certainly wouldn't have been my friends, but they wanted to be left alone.) In the first firefight, a 14 year old boy was killed, as was a federal agent (shot with a Enfield rifle, if memory serves.) That's a K-D of 1:1 and it was a case of trained agents with machine guns against regular folks (including a child) with hunting rifles. Those numbers would imply 6,000 dead agents - assuming that they similarly caught their targets by surprise, their targets were poorly armed, and their targets didn't want a fight at all. (Obviously it's not 6 million individuals - many owners have more than 1, so my numbers are not in the conservative direction, but you get my point.)
* It's been a good wakeup call to the folks who only really want things when the government says you can't have them. My family of non-gun owners, even tending in the anti-gun direction, is armed up quite well thanks to MD's ban after Sandy Hook.
* It's been a good "Power Alarm" by the number of public comments.

They surely aren't going to be coming for anything back in the hills of Mississippi - these farmers, ranchers, and loggers would make Lexington and Concord look like a joke.

Nickberg500 · Sep 13, 2021

JMangle said:
Man, don't get me started on "Armor Piercing Ammo" and the history of all that.

* Movies where a handgun can shoot through a bulldozer blade because of a bullet coating intended to make a barrel last longer. (One of the Lethal Weapon films - "Cop Killuh [sic] Bullets" was the line.)

* Attempts to ban basically all rifle ammo, because it can all go through armor, depending on the level.

* All the hysteria over the 5.7x28 ammo, .357 SIG, etc.

* Bans on the imports of green-tip ammo. Shoot, now all Russian ammo will soon be banned.

The guys at work today (mainly the Union workers who have considerable protection from HR) were figuratively up in arms (perhaps would have been literally so if we weren't at work) over the forced vaccination rule - basically everyone has made the connection between the far-left wanting no police to protect us, no weapons to save ourselves, and forcing inoculations like cattle. (I'm vaccinated, I advise people get the shot, but I'm not forcing anyone.) It all just seems to be a series of probing attempts to see how much we'll endure. They're probably waiting for someone to snap and then pass a bunch of laws targeting anyone who questions anything they say.

This ATF overreach on the stabilizing braces has had several beneficial consequences that I doubt they expected:

* A wonderful case and point of the ATF saying something is OK then after it becomes popular they ban it.

* 6-10 million, I think I heard, stabilizing braces in existence - that means we'll get a good legal test of "in common use" (I'm not a lawyer, so if you think I'm wrong, correct me.)

* See the above number - how many will comply?

* You can't try to round up the non-compliers, even if 90% comply, and it's only 6 million in existence, and then if 99% hand them over without issue, that still makes 6,000 Ruby Ridges. And the Weavers just wanted to be left alone (not saying they weren't racists, certainly wouldn't have been my friends, but they wanted to be left alone.) In the first firefight, a 14 year old boy was killed, as was a federal agent (shot with a Enfield rifle, if memory serves.) That's a K-D of 1:1 and it was a case of trained agents with machine guns against regular folks (including a child) with hunting rifles. Those numbers would imply 6,000 dead agents - assuming that they similarly caught their targets by surprise, their targets were poorly armed, and their targets didn't want a fight at all. (Obviously it's not 6 million individuals - many owners have more than 1, so my numbers are not in the conservative direction, but you get my point.)

* It's been a good wakeup call to the folks who only really want things when the government says you can't have them. My family of non-gun owners, even tending in the anti-gun direction, is armed up quite well thanks to MD's ban after Sandy Hook.

* It's been a good "Power Alarm" by the number of public comments.

They surely aren't going to be coming for anything back in the hills of Mississippi - these farmers, ranchers, and loggers would make Lexington and Concord look like a joke.

Agreed. Also per the Congressional report I linked in my submission, some estimates are upwards of 40 million.

Armed Citizen · Sep 30, 2021

So is there any timeframe we can expect the final ruling on this? For braces or the ruling on 80% receivers?

John from MD · Sep 30, 2021

Do we really care? :innocent0

Fox123 · Sep 30, 2021

Armed Citizen said:
So is there any timeframe we can expect the final ruling on this? For braces or the ruling on 80% receivers?

As long as it takes to click through and “read” then all.

Their decision is already made…….

camo556 · Sep 30, 2021

Armed Citizen said:
So is there any timeframe we can expect the final ruling on this? For braces or the ruling on 80% receivers?

funny you should ask

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/09/do...ocess-211k-stabilizer-comments/#axzz77yByRKFQ

they do not seem to have even committed to getting to all 211k comments by Jan 2022.

smokey · Sep 30, 2021

camo556 said:
funny you should ask

https://www.ammoland.com/2021/09/do...ocess-211k-stabilizer-comments/#axzz77yByRKFQ

they do not seem to have even committed to getting to all 211k comments by Jan 2022.

aka, "It was super helpful for all those brace owners to identify themselves for us. We've been working hard to create a database of them". Lolz.... just kidding.... hopefully.

camo556 · Sep 30, 2021

smokey0118 said:
aka, "It was super helpful for all those brace owners to identify themselves for us. We've been working hard to create a database of them". Lolz.... just kidding.... hopefully.

meh. I commented, then bought a bulletproof vest for my dog.

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