Red dot/laser combo for AR flat top receiver

mpollan1 · Apr 9, 2021

Evening gents, need to distract myself from the lunacy of our surroundings so started thinking about optics for the one AR I did not lose in the Chesapeake.

Said AR has only iron sights and I would like to give my aging eyes a break for short range acquisition. Just starting my search/research. My attempts at searching this forum did not yield much so hence this post.

I'm open to any and all suggestions, criticisms, etc. I will not say money is no object but I don't want to place a limit because I do not want to filter out anything in the early stages of my quest.

Thanks in advance.

slsc98 · Apr 9, 2021

mpollan1 said:
...I would like to give my aging eyes a break for short range acquisition. ...

I’ve been happy thus far with Veteran-owned Tacticon products: https://tacticon.com/

TIP: order JUST 1 ITEM first order because once you register your first purchase you will receive a Lifetime Code good for 25% off all future purchases ..

This Firefly V2 in particular used to be on our overnight travel / hotel pcc but, I just swapped it onto the under-rail on the wife’s nightstand Glock 34 (after lotsa white light, she likes lasers, A LOT and prefers green): https://tacticon.com/product/pistol-laser-flashlight-combo/

I’m up to six of these now on everything from a Scorpion Micro and Stribog SP9A3 to several S&W M&P15-22’s: https://tacticon.com/product/predator-v3-micro-red-dot-sight/

3 of these cantilevered on a Tavor TS-12, a Tavor X95 and I don’t think I’ve mounted the 3rd one, yet: https://tacticon.com/product/predator-red-dot-sight/

Finally, just received 3 of these in today’s Mail and tomorrow one will be going on a Zastava M70 AK ... https://tacticon.com/product/red-dot-reflex-sight-for-ar15-rifle/

Baldheaded · Apr 9, 2021

Here's my 2 cents. I was thinking the same thing for my AR last year. Lasers don't really work well in daylight. Next, an AR isn't my home nighttime go to. There is a couple of reasons for that but one being they are just to damn loud. Unless you got time to grab ears for you and the family which I doubt you will. Can you tell me why you are thinking you need the laser? I'm sure my post will get some criticism we all have opinions.

trickg · Apr 9, 2021

For me prism optics are the order of the day because I have an astigmatism - red dots show up as a blurry dot and a ghost dot.

For solid quality that won’t break the bank, look at Primary Arms. I’ve got their SLX 3X Prism Optic Gen 3 with an adjustable diopter that allows you to focus the reticle, and there are torture test articles online for it that are seriously impressive. They make a 1x optic that’s also pretty neat - like a red dot without the blur.

If you really want a red dot, look at the Sig Romeo 5, or the Vortex Sparc 2. That’s assuming you can find anything in stock anywhere

mopar92 · Apr 9, 2021

Without knowing your budget the standard answer is Aimpoint. Its the only one that has a true track record of service with mil/LE use.

Holosun has a decent reputation for budget options and are said to be the OEM for most rebranded red dots from other manufacturers.

DI optical provides the red dots for South Korean military and are also a nice option.

I like my IWI Tru Dot RDS. It has a large screen like an Eotech a 2 MOA dot for precision and shake awake technology.

Eotechs are bleh. They've been bleh for a long time but in the past 2 years I've seen a huge marketing push for them.

trickg · Apr 9, 2021

mopar92 said:
Without knowing your budget the standard answer is Aimpoint. Its the only one that has a true track record of service with mil/LE use.

Holosun has a decent reputation for budget options and are said to be the OEM for most rebranded red dots from other manufacturers.

DI optical provides the red dots for South Korean military and are also a nice option.

I like my IWI Tru Dot RDS. It has a large screen like an Eotech a 2 MOA dot for precision and shake awake technology.

Eotechs are bleh. They've been bleh for a long time but in the past 2 years I've seen a huge marketing push for them.

I have an Aimpoint on my issue M4. If not for my astigmatism it would be awesome. We also have some Trijicon ACOGs, but those optics run around $800 and $1300 respectively.

I thought pretty hard about getting an ACOG but opted for the Primary Arms, mainly because I couldn’t see the point in putting a $1300 optic on a $600 rifle.

outrider58 · Apr 10, 2021

Some decent info here...

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-ar-15-lasers/

mpollan1 · Apr 10, 2021

Stream of consciousness response(s):

I have a Romeo5
I have a Primary Arms 4x ACSS Reticle

I like the Romeo but the PA is meh for me. Long range shooting is fun but reflecting on how I am most likely to use an AR is honestly no further out than 20 - 30 yards. Where I live (Gulag MoCo) line of sight just is not that far in the event there is a need. Hell, gonna be real hard to claim self defense even at that range but if I feel I need to... There are other items in the house for close range. There are other items in the house with long legs. It's just the wife and I in the house. I am familiar with firearms, she not so much. A laser/red dot are intuitive for those that have not been shooting since they were 8. Laser allows for acquisition without proper shouldering.

I want something compact/low profile that will not interfere with Iron. Co-witness is OK but could see that distracting Wifey.

outrider58 · Apr 10, 2021

mpollan1 said:
Stream of consciousness response(s):

I have a Romeo5

I have a Primary Arms 4x ACSS Reticle

I like the Romeo but the PA is meh for me. Long range shooting is fun but reflecting on how I am most likely to use an AR is honestly no further out than 20 - 30 yards. Where I live (Gulag MoCo) line of sight just is not that far in the event there is a need. Hell, gonna be real hard to claim self defense even at that range but if I feel I need to... There are other items in the house for close range. There are other items in the house with long legs. It's just the wife and I in the house. I am familiar with firearms, she not so much. A laser/red dot are intuitive for those that have not been shooting since they were 8. Laser allows for acquisition without proper shouldering.

I want something compact/low profile that will not interfere with Iron. Co-witness is OK but could see that distracting Wifey.

If it were me, I would forego the laser and stick with the red dot in consideration of the wife, opting maybe for a light instead. That's just me though.

mpollan1 · Apr 10, 2021

Thanks B, all opinions welcome. Analysis is in its infancy. Likely will get the CT from your link and give it a whirl. Hard to beat Amazon Prime for testing purposes.

mcmilbra · Apr 10, 2021

I currently have an Holosun on one AR and a Sig Romeo5 on the other and both do great for me. But im not trying to Hit anything over 100 with them either.

outrider58 · Apr 10, 2021

mpollan1 said:
Thanks B, all opinions welcome. Analysis is in its infancy. Likely will get the CT from your link and give it a whirl. Hard to beat Amazon Prime for testing purposes.

Yessir!

trickg · Apr 10, 2021

mpollan1 said:
Stream of consciousness response(s):

I have a Romeo5

I have a Primary Arms 4x ACSS Reticle

I like the Romeo but the PA is meh for me. Long range shooting is fun but reflecting on how I am most likely to use an AR is honestly no further out than 20 - 30 yards. Where I live (Gulag MoCo) line of sight just is not that far in the event there is a need. Hell, gonna be real hard to claim self defense even at that range but if I feel I need to... There are other items in the house for close range. There are other items in the house with long legs. It's just the wife and I in the house. I am familiar with firearms, she not so much. A laser/red dot are intuitive for those that have not been shooting since they were 8. Laser allows for acquisition without proper shouldering.

I want something compact/low profile that will not interfere with Iron. Co-witness is OK but could see that distracting Wifey.

Something to consider, in general the Army uses two optics on their issue M4s:

The Aimpoint red dot (A couple of different models, but I think the CompM2/M4 is current
The Trijicon ACOG 4x with the ACSS reticle

There's a good reason for both. At 4x, you really aren't doing much in terms of "long range" - it's a bit much for across the room, but in a practical sense, you could easily engage targets that are fairly close without too much issue - you'll get blurring inside of 10-12 feet, but past that it starts to clear up considerably.

I bought the PA 3x ACSS for the specific reason that I have issues using my M4s red dot due to astigmatism, and my eyes are old enough that seeing the targets at 300m where they aren't blurry is an issue - I want the magnification.

(side note - I don't think Primary Arms is currently making a 4x optic - I think they make a 3x and 5x, but their 4x is no longer available.)

You and I definitely see things differently with the PA optics - they are anything but "meh" for me - they call it the poor man's ACOG (that, and the Vortex 3x Spitfire) for a reason. It's got good glass, it holds zero, and can take a tremendous amount of abuse without issue.

If money is no object, get the Aimpoint - the civilian version of what the military is currently using. I mean, the military uses it, and for good reason - why second guess that? Lasers...I see guys at the range attempting (and mostly failing) to use lasers at the range - any small twitch is magnified the further out the target is, so while the shooter is trying like hell to stay steady, that little dot is dancing all over the place. IMO you'd be much better served with a standard red dot (provided you don't have an astigmatism - if you do, you're going to hate the red dot) or a 1x prism scope, where you won't have the dot blur, and the reticle can still be illuminated in the same way. Or not - the beauty of an etched reticle for a prism optic is that you can still see it whether you have batteries or not.

The last time I was at the range with my Guard unit, we actually had an issue with a couple of the people with the Aimpoint. I don't know if we ran out of batteries or if their batteries went dead, weren't connecting, etc, but without power on a red dot, you're dead in the water - at that point it's just a lens. I own 1 red dot optic (Vortex Strikefire 2) and I'll likely replace it at some point because of the blurring issues I have with my astigmatism, and when I do, it will likey be with a 1x prism optic.

You said you wanted all opinions, and those are mine. IMO, look at prism optics - if you don't want the magnification there are a number of good selections for 1x prism optics. However, if you really want to do it up "correctly" - Aimpoint or ACOG, or PA/Vortex/Sig/Burris/etc if that's all your budget allows.

mpollan1 · Apr 10, 2021

trickg said:
Something to consider, in general the Army uses two optics on their issue M4s:

The Aimpoint red dot (A couple of different models, but I think the CompM2/M4 is current

The Trijicon ACOG 4x with the ACSS reticle

There's a good reason for both. At 4x, you really aren't doing much in terms of "long range" - it's a bit much for across the room, but in a practical sense, you could easily engage targets that are fairly close without too much issue - you'll get blurring inside of 10-12 feet, but past that it starts to clear up considerably.

I bought the PA 3x ACSS for the specific reason that I have issues using my M4s red dot due to astigmatism, and my eyes are old enough that seeing the targets at 300m where they aren't blurry is an issue - I want the magnification.

(side note - I don't think Primary Arms is currently making a 4x optic - I think they make a 3x and 5x, but their 4x is no longer available.)

You and I definitely see things differently with the PA optics - they are anything but "meh" for me - they call it the poor man's ACOG (that, and the Vortex 3x Spitfire) for a reason. It's got good glass, it holds zero, and can take a tremendous amount of abuse without issue.

If money is no object, get the Aimpoint - the civilian version of what the military is currently using. I mean, the military uses it, and for good reason - why second guess that? Lasers...I see guys at the range attempting (and mostly failing) to use lasers at the range - any small twitch is magnified the further out the target is, so while the shooter is trying like hell to stay steady, that little dot is dancing all over the place. IMO you'd be much better served with a standard red dot (provided you don't have an astigmatism - if you do, you're going to hate the red dot) or a 1x prism scope, where you won't have the dot blur, and the reticle can still be illuminated in the same way. Or not - the beauty of an etched reticle for a prism optic is that you can still see it whether you have batteries or not.

The last time I was at the range with my Guard unit, we actually had an issue with a couple of the people with the Aimpoint. I don't know if we ran out of batteries or if their batteries went dead, weren't connecting, etc, but without power on a red dot, you're dead in the water - at that point it's just a lens. I own 1 red dot optic (Vortex Strikefire 2) and I'll likely replace it at some point because of the blurring issues I have with my astigmatism, and when I do, it will likey be with a 1x prism optic.

You said you wanted all opinions, and those are mine. IMO, look at prism optics - if you don't want the magnification there are a number of good selections for 1x prism optics. However, if you really want to do it up "correctly" - Aimpoint or ACOG, or PA/Vortex/Sig/Burris/etc if that's all your budget allows.

Yeah I got the PA 4x quite some time ago and truth be told my "meh" is more kneejerk than giving it a real whirl. I like the glass, feel, everything but the reticle is a bit busy, but as I indicated, I have not really spent much time with it.

I'll likely get a prism optic via Amazon's loaner program to see how it feels.

Thanks and keep 'em coming...

P.S. I am an Aimpoint/ACOG kind of guy but my wallet is not. Regardless, I like opinions as I can at least take them under advisement. :beer:

trickg · Apr 11, 2021

mpollan1 said:
P.S. I am an Aimpoint/ACOG kind of guy but my wallet is not. Regardless, I like opinions as I can at least take them under advisement.

I wanted a real ACOG SOOOOO bad, but I just didn't feel like I could justify that expense for my rifles, although I suppose if I ever needed to get my money back out of it I probably could do a good job of getting most of it. I'll spend that much on a gun, but I'm not quite there with spending that much on an optic, and especially not for a gun that only cost me half of that.

There's one aspect of the PA that IMO is better than the ACOG, and that's the adjustable diopter, which to my knowledge the ACOG doesn't have - I can dial the reticle in to be very crisp and sharp. Otherwise, the PA isn't battle tested - the ACOG is. I've read some pretty interesting stories about ACOGs getting seriously abused in real combat and continuing to function without issue. But that's what that price tag is going to get you.

454shooter · Apr 12, 2021

I have had great luck with the Holosun RDS... I prefer the models with the selectable 65moa circle - 2moa dot reticle. I also like to set mine up with the American Defense AD-T1-11 STD or AD-T1-10 STD QD mount (it is a direct replacement for the stock holosun non-qd mount).

I am not a big fan of lasers on rifles...as stated above, they are extremely difficult to pickup in daylight conditions. But, if you really want/need one, I would opt for something like a Streamlight TLR-2. If you decide you don't want/need/like the laser, it is still a quality weapon light.

Bountied · Apr 12, 2021

mpollan1 said:
Stream of consciousness response(s):

I have a Romeo5

I have a Primary Arms 4x ACSS Reticle

I like the Romeo but the PA is meh for me. Long range shooting is fun but reflecting on how I am most likely to use an AR is honestly no further out than 20 - 30 yards. Where I live (Gulag MoCo) line of sight just is not that far in the event there is a need. Hell, gonna be real hard to claim self defense even at that range but if I feel I need to... There are other items in the house for close range. There are other items in the house with long legs. It's just the wife and I in the house. I am familiar with firearms, she not so much. A laser/red dot are intuitive for those that have not been shooting since they were 8. Laser allows for acquisition without proper shouldering.

I want something compact/low profile that will not interfere with Iron. Co-witness is OK but could see that distracting Wifey.

Romeo 5 for the win. I have 7... I may have a problem. The motion on feature is what sealed the deal. It also turns itself off.

outrider58 · Apr 12, 2021

Just stumbled across this today...

https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=256105

mpollan1 · Apr 12, 2021

outrider58 said:
Just stumbled across this today...

https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=256105

Thanks, yeah saw that. Piqued my interest. "Built in" battery has me puzzling.

Bountied · Apr 12, 2021

mpollan1 said:
Thanks, yeah saw that. Piqued my interest. "Built in" battery has me puzzling.

It's rechargeable.

Red dot/laser combo for AR flat top receiver

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