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  • Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    I remember when WWII K98K's were cut up because "they made millions of 'em so what's the big deal?"

    "Restoration" is a dirty word to me but, as pointed out, it's yours to do with what you want. Personally, I try to buy and I recommend firearms without any issues from the start. Some, I will shoot. Some, I will simply enjoy without firing. A few, I felt too much pressure in preserving so I sold those off to others who could appreciate them more than I could. Just always be aware....unless it's something as innocuous as switching out a part without modifying anything, you usually cannot undo what has been done. And what is "common" today might be highly sought after later.
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,585
    Glen Burnie
    Not true at all, there is a very large market for "survivor" cars.
    Do the new owners then just leave them all crappy with bad upholstery, and in poor working order, or do they put some time, money and effort into them doing a proper restoration? Seems to me that it's almost always the latter. On Pawn Stars that's always part of Rick's spiel to the customer when it comes to old cars - "I'm going to have to put $XXXX into it before I can get it ready to sell...."

    I see many fully restored old classic cars - redone exactly as they would have been done as original, but RESTORED.

    Yeah , I was conflicted with above post .

    I have a couple of firearms niches : Quality , period correct Sporters . To Me , an authentic late '40s to mid '60s American style Sporter is q legitimate category in itself , not a damaged .mil rifle . ( But everyone else disagrees , so I can get some steals . And pre war N Frames , with aftermarket nickel plating .

    But note that I get them after somebody else did the deed . so that I reap the benefit of their having slashed the values .
    I don't know when my sporters were made except for the one my Dad built on an old Mauser action. I suspect that the original G98 Mauser may have had issues - bad barrel or something - but I won't ever know because he's no longer around to ask. The other one I have no clue about - I don't think my Dad did that one. I think he bought it that way. It has the original stair-step K98 Mauser barrel. The last one is a very well done Springfield and from what the guy I bought it from told me, he thought it was likely sportered in the early 80s.

    It's not something I'd do. At this point I see no need - if I want a quality bolt gun, it will be something on the current market specifically built for that purpose. As a result, I'll likely never own another Mauser - I have no interest in old military rifles like some people do.

    But getting back to the subject of restoration, I have a couple of guns I've thought about having some work done on. The first I mentioned in the thread is the pre-29, 1956 S&W 44 Magnum. That one will be reblued at some point in the fairly near future. I've earmarked funds for it, so now it's a matter of getting it boxed up and FedExed to the guy who will do the work.

    The other two were old family guns. One is an old Winchester model 1890 (1913 production) that was a family gun, but it has seen better days. The stock was broken at one point and "fixed" with the bolt through the stock, and the barrel is not original. It was a generic barrel that actually has multiple dovetail slots for attaching the tube magazine, based on the gun it was going on. I think it would be nice to have a good restoration done on it to make it right by someone who has the ability to make it like it was when it was new.

    The other family gun is an old Marlin 1893 in 30-30 that as near as I can tell was made sometime in the first 10 years of the 1900s. It's just old and beat up - it was a farm gun and was used for decades to dispatch coyotes, jackrabbits and whatever else it needed to do. I think it would be nice to restore that one as well - not to shoot, but just to make right again - kind of like you would an old car.

    Clearly there is a good reason for restoration or Doug Turnbull wouldn't have a waitlist.
     

    Mdeng

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Nov 13, 2009
    8,568
    Virginia
    “I just love the original paint, gaskets and patina on that 1955 Chevy!” Said no one ever.

    No one pays top dollar premium for an unrestored classic car.

    We have two different conversations going on here. One is talking about restoration, the other is talking about making permanent modifications to turn a gun into something different than it was originally.

    I currently own three rifles that started out as military rifles - two Mausers and a Springfield 1903A3 that are now well done sporters. I love all of them and have never even thought to check what they may have been as original rifles. I just don’t care that much and I’m perfectly fine with them being working guns.

    You have never heard of a barn find survivor then.
     

    Mdeng

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Nov 13, 2009
    8,568
    Virginia
    Well done Sporters have their own collector market. Some can bring as much and even more than the left alone original.

    It's all dependent on the market and quality of the work. I have a few vintage guns in stock and the price varies greatly dependent on condition, rarity and of course interest.
     

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    Mdeng

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Nov 13, 2009
    8,568
    Virginia
    I remember when WWII K98K's were cut up because "they made millions of 'em so what's the big deal?"

    "Restoration" is a dirty word to me but, as pointed out, it's yours to do with what you want. Personally, I try to buy and I recommend firearms without any issues from the start. Some, I will shoot. Some, I will simply enjoy without firing. A few, I felt too much pressure in preserving so I sold those off to others who could appreciate them more than I could. Just always be aware....unless it's something as innocuous as switching out a part without modifying anything, you usually cannot undo what has been done. And what is "common" today might be highly sought after later.

    Agreed
     

    Mdeng

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Nov 13, 2009
    8,568
    Virginia
    It is my opinion that "Restoration" should only be done when the original is in unserviceable condition. For example I have a S&W K22 listed that needs considerable work done before it will even be a good shooter. To refinish it or even replace the barrel would add value not detract value.

    That in itself is the question of should you or shouldn't you restore. Does the restoration add value? Who does that value belong to. It belongs to the current owner of the item being restored.

    While I hate to find a rare gun that has been poorly restored. It was the previous owners prerogative to do what they wanted with the item they owned. This doesn't mean that it makes me happy, it does mean that that rare item in original condition is just more rare and more valuable.

    And no that doesn't mean restore them all so the original i have is worth more. It means that I don't like to see mistakes made that are later regretted. Oh how many times I have a gun brought in to sell and the seller "Cleaned" it. They scrubbed all the old brown rust off the gun and made it bright and shinny. By doing so it dropped the value of the gun by 65%.
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,585
    Glen Burnie
    It is my opinion that "Restoration" should only be done when the original is in unserviceable condition. For example I have a S&W K22 listed that needs considerable work done before it will even be a good shooter. To refinish it or even replace the barrel would add value not detract value.
    I'm not sure what it would do the the value of that Winchester 1890 .22 rifle I have. It shoots and functions just fine, but without a real Winchester barrel on it, it's certainly not worth much as is.

    If it was a pre-1899 Model 1890, it would be a no-brainer - restoring it would absolutely bring the value up. This one is 1913 - not "antique," but it is old. I'm fairly certain a quality restoration would still bring the value up, but I'd probably spend as much to restore it as it would be worth in the long run.

    Maybe one day.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,877
    Of course there were individual matters of taste , just like modern day AR " builds " , but the styles of work done , and parts used are of a type for golden age Sporters , and judging the age of the woodwork . To a degree even distinguish between late and early era . Basic conversions involved reshshaping and recontouring original stock. Full bore involved nice walnut blank done in Classic , California , or European styles , or a mix of design elements .

    Big Name custom. 'Smiths like G&H are $$ in their own right . The sweet spots are talented individuals who took their time ( like my Dad) , or local 'smiths who did them as a sideline to general gunsmithing , but didn't have a reputation outside their area .
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,585
    Glen Burnie
    There was a niche industry for that in the early part of the 20th century - if you wanted a custom sporter rifle, it came from a shop like Hoffman, Griffin and Howe, Henriksen, etc, and they were invariably built on Mauser or Springfield 03 actions.
     

    Neutron

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 20, 2014
    1,531
    severna park
    I've "conserved" a few guns recently. Filthy,rusting neglected guns that you would be afraid to shoot. Missing or incorrect parts cobbled together over the years on, at one time, really nice guns. Most recently a Winchester model 12. It's not within my ability to make it perfect, and probably not worth what a perfect restoration would cost. Just replacing a few screws,magazine tube end plug, butt plate, and a few other little parts was over $100.00. The action was so gummed up it wouldn't function properly. If you loaded a shell, you couldn't eject it. The button to release the action didn't work because of all the crud accumulated in the action from years of neglect. I re-blued the receiver and barrel, and refinished the stock. No it's not perfect but it's a nice looking old gun that looks like it's been well cared for. I'm sure I increased the value by this "conservation".
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,877
    The first half certainly . Replace the missing parts , deep cleaning of gunk , and return to functional is textbook " Conservation " . And good and desireable . And at that point a functional , but finish worn M12 would indeed be more desirable than a finish worn incomplete and non- functioning M12 .

    * M12 are kind of a special case , continued below *

    How Ugly was it before ? Any original finish left at all ? Covered with rust ?

    In general , something has the be extra nasty and revolting for a refinish to break even in value ( not counting the expense of the refinishing ) .

    * M12 are special case . The combination of large production , especially when combined with very strong demand for them a Using guns right up to today bend the usual value curves .

    High grade guns , and 98% and up condition bring $$$ , with usual downward curve of condition to a point , at about 70- 75% .

    Below that , their desirability is based on their shooting . There is little difference in value between a 60% and a 10% , as long as both are usable for trap/ skeet/ hunting .
     

    Neutron

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 20, 2014
    1,531
    severna park
    pictures

    Here are the before and after pictures. I think the last picture is before I had a screw for the mag end cap. I didn't re-blue the mag tube but I may do that later as it's got a few spots worn off.
     

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    JoeRinMD

    Rifleman
    Jul 18, 2008
    2,014
    AA County
    In an amazing bit of synchronicity, Brownell's put this video out on YouTube in their Symth Busters series, entitled Will Re-Bluing Increase the Value of My Gun?": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtLiJdv95k8

    And today, they had a follow-on "Quick Tip: The Difference Between Rebluing, Refinishing & Restoration": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w200TA7W6uA

    Unfortunately, they didn't refer to "conservation" in the spectrum of restoration. I think the distinction is important to understand.

    JoeR
     

    dannyp

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 30, 2018
    1,463
    i don't know if i'd bother reblueing the tube , you have it looking nice , bet it shoots good , that's what matters .
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,585
    Glen Burnie
    Here are the before and after pictures. I think the last picture is before I had a screw for the mag end cap. I didn't re-blue the mag tube but I may do that later as it's got a few spots worn off.
    IMO you did a good thing for that shotgun - it looked terrible before you put some time in to clean it up. I don't know how much sanding you did on the stock before refinishing it, but it looks so much better. It went from a dirty, cruddy, non-functional gun to something that a hunter would be willing to take out into the field for some pheasant hunting.
     

    HiStandards

    Active Member
    Aug 1, 2017
    571
    Anne Arundel Co
    IMO you did a good thing for that shotgun - it looked terrible before you put some time in to clean it up. I don't know how much sanding you did on the stock before refinishing it, but it looks so much better. It went from a dirty, cruddy, non-functional gun to something that a hunter would be willing to take out into the field for some pheasant hunting.

    Yes. Unfortunately some day someone is going to be trying to sell it at a gunshow as a 90% gun and it will be up to the buyer to understand it isn't.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    First rule of thumb for me is that anything with potential to have any sort of residual or future value, do the least invasive method possible during conservation/repair.
    The other thing is the quickest way to devalue something decent is to perform a permanent alteration or use a one off method of parts substitution that cannot be reversed to a main component.
    However, if its already been radically altered or compromised have at it. With care and good judgement most things can be improved to satisfy the current owners expectations for operation. As long as any work doesn't compromise any future owners safety I don't worry about it.
    But your still only going to have a sum of parts gun to anyone who knows what they're looking at in the majority of cases without exception.
     

    Augie

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 30, 2007
    4,504
    Central MD
    Restoration done right is a thing of beauty but doing it right is neither cheap or fast and requires a master gunsmith of which there are very few in this country. The good ones are booked for years or not taking new work.
    Just to give you an idea of what it takes to correctly restore a valuable firearm here is a link to my AH Fox XE restoration performed by a master. An XE is a rare desirable shotgun and I found it cheap but it was in rough shape. The gunsmith is not taking new work in case anyone is wondering.


    https://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2015/12/restoration-of-fox-xe-grade.html
     

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