1-8X AR 223/556 options?

camo556 said:

there is a lot of good advice on scopes in this article: https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/modern-3-gun-scopes/326552

and here is how people shoot:



1-4x or 1-6x is plenty out to 500 yds. if you zero at 200 yds you can hit anyone from the neck to the dick out to 350 yds.

You can see from the vid: Rds/irons for short range quick acquisition (canted rds to the side of an optic).

Also I need that mag fed shotgun in my life.

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Surprised that they let him unsling his rifle with the muzzle pointing backwards without giving him a DQ

OK,, I am still beating this dead horse.
Got out a few of my scoped long guns and spent time looking through scopes. Sometimes things just feel real good, but you can't put your finger on it.
I "Like" compact scopes with a larger Obj lens.

So I was looking into a compact 1-6, 1.5-6, or 1.5-8 with a 32-40mm Obj lens,, and a reticle for 5.56
I found the Burris 1.5-6x40 MTAC,, but story of my life,, it is no longer available
Any other mid grade 1-6 to 1.5-8 with a 36-40mm obj lens,, and 5.56 reticle ??

(Burris did make a later model with TALL turrets,, I hate tall turrets)

Yeah I have that scope. Good scope but not my fav because its bulky. Market has moved away towards x24 or x28, probably for the same reason I have (bulk).

I do see an ELCAN thats 2400 on midwayusa. I have read nothing but bad stuff about that.

The x40 or x42 objectives I see being sold start at 2x minimum power, so 2x-10x or 2x-8x. I love my Vortex 2-10x42, but awful for quick acquisition or close in work.


Maybe you need another rifle. One with a 2-10x42 and another with an rds for close in/HD work.

IMO there are 3 jobs a good LPVO can perform.

First is illuminated 1X for close/fast work, basically to replace a red dot. You want a flat clear image at 1X, large field of view, and daylight bright illumination, the PST2 and most above it have these. The Strike Eagle and most budget optics don't, usually some distortion to make shooting close at 1X with both eyes uncomfortable, and either dim illumination or they illuminate a large enough area that it doesn't work in daylight, and you have to use the black reticle on a lighter background.

Second is shooting to point of aim with the reticle, this can be at any magnification or distance. You want a clean image and useable reticle, holdover marks or a good BDC help extend the range without adjustments.
Illumination helps in low light, but being you are not shooting as fast/close, the faster acquisition from daylight bright illumination isn't as critical. This is where less expensive scopes do the best, less shooting close/fast means you can make due with a little distortion, although a bright clean image with less distortion is always nice.

Third is precision use at longer ranges, probably 400+ yards at full magnification. Clarity and good contrast make it much easier to identify targets and hold, good turret adjustments and zero stops are nice to dial in drop and windage. A fine reticle is important to avoid covering the target with thick close-range lines. Like shooting close at 1X this is where useable features cost money, solid repeatable click adjustments, zero stops and marked turrets give you a lot more flexibility.

The PST2 is kind of an introduction to high end features, the image looks great, large and flat, clean and bright. The illumination is daylight bright, and runs at 1X close range as fast as an Aimpoint. It has a simple useable BDC for holdovers. The turrets are low-profile, but have numbers visible to the shooter, repeatable and have solid clicks, but no zero stop. they work great for adjustments, and you take them off to reposition them when zeroing. The Strike Eagle image is a big downgrade, the old reticle is fat and busy, the new one is cleaner and better, but still not great. The turrets are small with an unsecured number wheel on top, so it's easily bumped off of zero and can't be seen without moving from the firing position. Basically it makes it impossible to dial in for longer range shooting, and you are stuck using the BDC.


For a rough comparison:
PST2 1-6 at 1X, max illumination


SE1-8 at 1X, max illumination



PST2 1-6 at 6X



SE 1-8 at 8X

So how much did you say you wnted for the Burris ??

I probably need to go to some shows and put my hands on a few scopes.
I was hoping 1.5X would be close enough to 1X AND give me the larger objective.

But like cloths,, the firearms industry follows the latest fashon,, and when all us weekenders so the "Special Operators" with the 1-8X24s,, that's what sells.

A larger objective will allow a lower end scope to have a clearer, brighter picture,, something you have to go over $1000 in the 1-8x24 market to get.

Honestly, coming from a hunting background,, I am thinking a compact 1-6x36 duplex reticle with hold over for 556 would suit me fine.

camo556 said:

Yeah I have that scope. Good scope but not my fav because its bulky. Market has moved away towards x24 or x28, probably for the same reason I have (bulk).

I do see an ELCAN thats 2400 on midwayusa. I have read nothing but bad stuff about that.

The x40 or x42 objectives I see being sold start at 2x minimum power, so 2x-10x or 2x-8x. I love my Vortex 2-10x42, but awful for quick acquisition or close in work.


Maybe you need another rifle. One with a 2-10x42 and another with an rds for close in/HD work.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed write up and pics,,
more to digest

alucard0822 said:

IMO there are 3 jobs a good LPVO can perform.

First is illuminated 1X for close/fast work, basically to replace a red dot. You want a flat clear image at 1X, large field of view, and daylight bright illumination, the PST2 and most above it have these. The Strike Eagle and most budget optics don't, usually some distortion to make shooting close at 1X with both eyes uncomfortable, and either dim illumination or they illuminate a large enough area that it doesn't work in daylight, and you have to use the black reticle on a lighter background.

Second is shooting to point of aim with the reticle, this can be at any magnification or distance. You want a clean image and useable reticle, holdover marks or a good BDC help extend the range without adjustments.
Illumination helps in low light, but being you are not shooting as fast/close, the faster acquisition from daylight bright illumination isn't as critical. This is where less expensive scopes do the best, less shooting close/fast means you can make due with a little distortion, although a bright clean image with less distortion is always nice.

Third is precision use at longer ranges, probably 400+ yards at full magnification. Clarity and good contrast make it much easier to identify targets and hold, good turret adjustments and zero stops are nice to dial in drop and windage. A fine reticle is important to avoid covering the target with thick close-range lines. Like shooting close at 1X this is where useable features cost money, solid repeatable click adjustments, zero stops and marked turrets give you a lot more flexibility.

The PST2 is kind of an introduction to high end features, the image looks great, large and flat, clean and bright. The illumination is daylight bright, and runs at 1X close range as fast as an Aimpoint. It has a simple useable BDC for holdovers. The turrets are low-profile, but have numbers visible to the shooter, repeatable and have solid clicks, but no zero stop. they work great for adjustments, and you take them off to reposition them when zeroing. The Strike Eagle image is a big downgrade, the old reticle is fat and busy, the new one is cleaner and better, but still not great. The turrets are small with an unsecured number wheel on top, so it's easily bumped off of zero and can't be seen without moving from the firing position. Basically it makes it impossible to dial in for longer range shooting, and you are stuck using the BDC.

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I run a Burris 1.5-8 it has cross hairs and a redot.

Swampfox Military/LE Pricing

If your eligible and thinking of Swampfox, they have an excellent Military/LE pricing program on their website.

All things being equal, this might tip the scales in terms of getting something a bit nicer for the same money, or save a bit and put it back into ammo.

Here's an Athlon on sale for $379, mount included. They've got a good reputation, although I haven't researched this particular scope.

https://www.eurooptic.com/Athlon-Argos-BTR-1-8x24-ATSR5-Scope-Cantilever-30mm-Scope-Mount.aspx

One of the issues of scopes for 3-gun is the fact that as the power goes up the FOV narrows, eye relief goes down, exit pupil narrows, and the sweet spot for you eye also narrows. I started out with a Burris MTAC CQ 1-4x24 and routinely shot it successfully to 400 yards. Thinking I needed more I swapped in a Burris MTAC CQ 1.5-6x42. Yes I could then hit targets out to 600 yards plus the 42mm objective made everything much brighter than 24mm scopes but it was slower to snap my eye to because the sweet spot was smaller. I never went any bigger.

Thanks for the review of the Burris MTACs,, I was on the search for a used one (discontinued) . but now rethinking.

I HATE a crappy, narrow eye box, hate it.

I am now thinking that possibly a decent 2-7 or 3-9 scope and a side canted red dot is the only way to achieve both far and near?

photoracer said:

One of the issues of scopes for 3-gun is the fact that as the power goes up the FOV narrows, eye relief goes down, exit pupil narrows, and the sweet spot for you eye also narrows. I started out with a Burris MTAC CQ 1-4x24 and routinely shot it successfully to 400 yards. Thinking I needed more I swapped in a Burris MTAC CQ 1.5-6x42. Yes I could then hit targets out to 600 yards plus the 42mm objective made everything much brighter than 24mm scopes but it was slower to snap my eye to because the sweet spot was smaller. I never went any bigger.

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Depends on your use case. What are you hitting that you need 7x? How accurate is your AR? Use case+rifle accuracy dictates loadout. I have one for SD (red dot and magnifier, but the magnifier is a waste of space tbh), a different one forcompetition, a third one for range larping. If I want to hit groundhogs at 200 yds I swap out the scope to a Vortex 2-10x42.

Self defense is well inside 50 yards. Range larping is inside 100 yds for most ppl (and mostly 25 yds). The max point blank range for 556 is about 240 yards, most mid tier ARs are 2-3 MOA. poverty builds will be on the 3 MOA end, decent builds on the 2 end. so you dont need holdover or magnification for any of that. You can (or should be able to) hit a 6" plate at 100yds all day with just a red dot set up.

camo556 said:

You can (or should be able to) hit a 6" plate at 100yds all day with just a red dot set up.

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Or iron sights for that matter. And there is something to be said for a light handy rifle.

Still - these LPVO's are a lot of fun.

I had a Bushnell AR Optics scope. I liked it. Quality piece of glass - not Vortex but close. I only sold it because I went to a mildot scope, don’t care for the BDC in the scope, otherwise I would still have it.

photoracer said:

One of the issues of scopes for 3-gun is the fact that as the power goes up the FOV narrows, eye relief goes down, exit pupil narrows, and the sweet spot for you eye also narrows. I started out with a Burris MTAC CQ 1-4x24 and routinely shot it successfully to 400 yards. Thinking I needed more I swapped in a Burris MTAC CQ 1.5-6x42. Yes I could then hit targets out to 600 yards plus the 42mm objective made everything much brighter than 24mm scopes but it was slower to snap my eye to because the sweet spot was smaller. I never went any bigger.

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There is also cost vs weight. Have played around with a 1-10 gen3 Razor, it's small, 34mm tube, 21oz and looks great at the full magnification range, all for $2,000, and IMO probably worth it. Other 34mm LPVOs look pretty good, but are usually north of 24oz and/or have less magnification range. 1-4s can look pretty good as the exit pupil on a 24mm lens is still 6mm, and are generally under 1lb, 1-6x take a bit better coatings and glass to avoid distortion or loosing image quality.

I run 2 rifles in 3 gun, a 18" SPR with a 1-6PST2, it's a tack driver out to 600, but kinda heavy at 9.5# with optic, so it's a little slower on hose stages, but I can make up time on longer ranges, works OK at peacemaker, but not at the 2-300 yard close stuff around here. I ended up building a lightweight rifle topped with a 1-4 Steiner, just over 6# without ammo, MUCH faster close in, does OK out to 2-300 yards, can struggle a little further out. Have tried less expensive strike eagle 1-6 and 1-8 scopes on it, but the 1-4 Steiner's smaller image is so crisp and bright, it is easier to make hits than the larger greyed out and distorted image on the lesser scopes despite greater magnification. Close in at 1x there is no comparison, crisp flat image with a crosshair and bright dot vs big ugly black reticle and noticeable distortion.