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  • bustem

    Member
    Dec 31, 2012
    7
    12 gauge for home defense

    Yes a 12 gauge is great but pay attention to to caveats in other messages. The recoil is heavy, especially with Buckshot loads.
    Since the Taurus Judge came out (a 410 revolver), cartridge manufacturers have developed some really effective 410 specialty defense loads. As an HQL instructor, I like to end my handgun classes with my students shooting my 410 Mossberg Super Bantam to show them how much easier it is to be more effective be with it than a handgun.
     

    Bountied

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2012
    6,906
    Pasadena
    Mossberg Shockwave for the win! Baseball bats can be effective too. Maybe a spear gun? Install an incapacitating gas system in your home. Electrified door knobs? Has anyone seen "people under the stairs"? Just set enough booby traps in your home and you won't need a gun.
     

    Doug Hile

    Active Member
    Aug 21, 2010
    146
    bottom of St Marys
    Yes a 12 gauge is great but pay attention to to caveats in other messages. The recoil is heavy, especially with Buckshot loads.
    Since the Taurus Judge came out (a 410 revolver), cartridge manufacturers have developed some really effective 410 specialty defense loads. As an HQL instructor, I like to end my handgun classes with my students shooting my 410 Mossberg Super Bantam to show them how much easier it is to be more effective be with it than a handgun.
    Sad,,,, 16, 20, and 410, are all downgrades of a 12, or a 10 gauge -- a REAL shotgun. Ten guages are a little TOO healthy for people now,, but they were standard in the Old West. That's what the Earps carried at the OK Corral. Damn,,, We have become a nation of pussies,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    Eh . In the Black Powder Era , the standard load for 10ga was 1 1/4oz of shot/ pellets . Same as 12ga in early smokeless era, and 3in 20ga .
     

    TomisinMd

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 11, 2013
    1,728
    Elkton, Md
    Use what you know best...not what you think technically DOES the best. At adrenalin time, you're "woobie" is your best bet in my opinion. Best chance of hitting anything.
    I'd start with your defense plan first.....staying put, choke point, ambush? Going all john wick and clearing your house? On patrol?
    If you're starting from scratch, that along road to determine it.
    Also, don't forget we live in Marylandistan, and I am very aware of what courts and jurys can do that people here. Gearing up for tactical dominance might sound awesome, but, is it the wise decision here in Maryland? I don't know.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    Yeah...but you're forgetting that they wouldn't have attacked him if he had a shotgun. The sound of Kyle "racking a round" would have scared them off.

    :lol::lol:

    FWIW, SF only has a shotgun for breaching doors. They are not very good in combat. Per my friend who has >20 years in 5th Group. His choice for HD? AR.
     

    omegared24

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 23, 2011
    4,747
    Ijamsville, MD
    :lol::lol:

    FWIW, SF only has a shotgun for breaching doors. They are not very good in combat. Per my friend who has >20 years in 5th Group. His choice for HD? AR.

    I agree. ARs are the best choice...period.

    When I take new shooters that are deciding on a gun purchase to the range I always take a Mossberg 500, Glock 19 and an AR. I don't need to tell you which one they like best.
     

    Bountied

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2012
    6,906
    Pasadena
    :lol::lol:

    FWIW, SF only has a shotgun for breaching doors. They are not very good in combat. Per my friend who has >20 years in 5th Group. His choice for HD? AR.

    WWI disagrees. Guys caught with shotguns were usually executed. They have had a use in all wars for one reason or another. Would I pick one for things greater than 10yds, no. I like my 9mm AR for that, or 300blk, 7.62, 5.56 etc..
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    WWI disagrees. Guys caught with shotguns were usually executed. They have had a use in all wars for one reason or another. Would I pick one for things greater than 10yds, no. I like my 9mm AR for that, or 300blk, 7.62, 5.56 etc..

    WWI kind of agrees. Why did they not like shotguns? It was because weapons that cause unnecessary suffering (the ones that don’t kill so good) are deemed unlawful.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    I don't really love pump shotguns, TBH. I know people love them because they are perceived to have fewer cycling issues, but semi-autos are easier for me to handle, less tiring to use, and oddly enough, are sometimes lighter-weight. The problem is that high-quality semis are considerably more expensive than a decent quality pump... best value for "bet your life" is one of those Beretta 1301 Tacticals that ArmsUnlimited sells cheap once in a while.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,680
    WWI kind of agrees. Why did they not like shotguns? It was because weapons that cause unnecessary suffering (the ones that don’t kill so good) are deemed unlawful.

    There is no historical evidence that anyone was actually executed for carrying a shotgun. Now, there might have been some field expedient executions, IE "not allowing the enemy to surrender".

    But there is zero evidence that ever actually occurred. It was mostly German grumbling. They were badly losing the war at the time.

    The reason why US service members didn't like shotguns is because they were issued with paper cartridges, which tended to swell in the wet, muddy conditions of the front. So basically you'd get a shot and then when you went to rack the slide, the magazine tube would be jammed up. Or your cartridges would tear apart if they got too wet. Brass shells were introduced super late and in only tiny numbers. Plastic hulls didn't exist then.

    In WWII in jungle combat shotguns were pretty well liked, largely because they were issued with brass shell's, that were (mostly) immune to weathering.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,680
    I don't really love pump shotguns, TBH. I know people love them because they are perceived to have fewer cycling issues, but semi-autos are easier for me to handle, less tiring to use, and oddly enough, are sometimes lighter-weight. The problem is that high-quality semis are considerably more expensive than a decent quality pump... best value for "bet your life" is one of those Beretta 1301 Tacticals that ArmsUnlimited sells cheap once in a while.

    I haven't shot semi-auto shotguns much, but other than cycling issues with ones not broken in sufficiently, or one that just doesn't like running light target loads, I have had 0 failures with high brass loads, especially buck or slugs in any semi-auto shotgun I have ever used. Now, we are talking perhaps 400-500 total rounds that were high brass/buck/slug in my few years of shooting. Maybe about the same again for steel/light target birdshot loads with a few failures in there.

    I've shot easily 2-3x that many out of a pump. Mostly out of my 870, but a few other pump guns. My 870 had some extraction issues that were solved by taking some really fine steel wool on a drill to the chamber. Once that was solved (within the first maybe 200-300 rounds) I've had zero issues that were not USER ERROR.

    I HAVE managed to short stroke my 870 at least half a dozen times and get her a bit locked up. Once while hunting. That was fun and frustrating. Granted, I have not done that hunting since then (my first time deer hunting with it) and it was years ago. I had probably shot half a dozen rounds of trap with it at that point and maybe 20 slugs at the range and had never used a pump before that even. The times since I've done it, have been uncommon and not in a long time. I think maybe a couple times training with snap caps. The rare time shooting clays and being real lazy about cycling it.

    But I WOULD consider that a training issues and a basic issue with them for a total novice user who won't or doesn't practice with one. Real shooting is best, but at least running dummies/snap caps through it occasionally to build some muscle memory.

    For BEST, most error resistant use, IMHO a double barrel SxS is the BEST way to go with the least training needed. Ole Shotgun Joe might be right there.

    It sure as heck isn't actually the best HD gun by a long shot. But, just for a total noob user who both isn't willing to practice/train at all and has zero experience with guns.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Two different things being discussed.

    I agree with those that contend that if you have only ONE firearm, it should be a shotgun. With bird shot you can take small game to put food on the table. With slugs, you can put larger game on the table. With buckshot, it makes a reasonable HD firearm.


    Is it the BEST choice as an HD firearm? Probably not. I am more in the short barrel AR camp, over a PCC
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,680
    Two different things being discussed.

    I agree with those that contend that if you have only ONE firearm, it should be a shotgun. With bird shot you can take small game to put food on the table. With slugs, you can put larger game on the table. With buckshot, it makes a reasonable HD firearm.


    Is it the BEST choice as an HD firearm? Probably not. I am more in the short barrel AR camp, over a PCC

    IMHO only if suppressed for a short barrel AR, unless you are using something like heavy subs in 300BO. It is a TON of blast in an enclosed space firing a rifle. Let alone a short barrel AR. Something like a 8.5" 300BO with a kurtz suppressor might be THE best (with supers in that case).
     

    Chauchat

    Active Member
    Jan 16, 2014
    113
    In the free States
    A Remington 11-87 would be my choice for HD if I were to buy for the home. I've seen what it can do to a man sized deer rib cage at living room distances. One big hole going inbound and one big hole outbound. And the 11-87 has the added benefit of not alerting the bad guys with the racking of a round in the darkness. Load it up 4+1 or 7+1 with an extension, set the safety and wait until somebody wants to meet Jesus.

    .
     

    Bountied

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2012
    6,906
    Pasadena
    A Remington 11-87 would be my choice for HD if I were to buy for the home. I've seen what it can do to a man sized deer rib cage at living room distances. One big hole going inbound and one big hole outbound. And the 11-87 has the added benefit of not alerting the bad guys with the racking of a round in the darkness. Load it up 4+1 or 7+1 with an extension, set the safety and wait until somebody wants to meet Jesus.

    .

    Man sized deer rib cage? haha
     

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