What's the Latest Interpretation? Do I need HBAR on SBR

jmaurath · Jul 7, 2016

I know there are lots of threads on this, some of them outdated at this point because the interpretation seems to have changed, so I apologize if I'm beating the dead horse, but here it goes.

I'm planning to build an AR SBR using a post FSA2013 lower in 5.56 with 11.5" barrel, do I need to use a HBAR (>.750 throughout profile) or can I use a standard government profile?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Wayne1one · Jul 7, 2016

No

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

outrider58 · Jul 7, 2016

What Wayne said.

rob-cubed · Jul 7, 2016

Reason being, anything you have to pay a tax stamp for is Federal domain. Supersedes MD law for the most part (not in every case but in general).

anderson76 · Jul 8, 2016

rob-cubed said:
Reason being, anything you have to pay a tax stamp for is Federal domain. Supersedes MD law for the most part (not in every case but in general).

This is 100% not the case. Any NFA item must be owned / possessed in accordance with MD law. The reason that an SBR AR15 is not banned (while long barreled AR15 is banned) is a result of the way MSP interprets MD Code.

Devil Dog · Jul 10, 2016

anderson76 said:
This is 100% not the case. Any NFA item must be owned / possessed in accordance with MD law. The reason that an SBR AR15 is not banned (while long barreled AR15 is banned) is a result of the way MSP interprets MD Code.

Agreed. 100%

Sent from my SM-T710 using Tapatalk

outrider58 · Jul 10, 2016

anderson76 said:
This is 100% not the case. Any NFA item must be owned / possessed in accordance with MD law. The reason that an SBR AR15 is not banned (while long barreled AR15 is banned) is a result of the way MSP interprets MD Code.

...and also the reason any center fire SBR must be 29'' or longer in Md.

fabsroman · Jul 11, 2016

So, what is the answer? Does an SBR need to be a copy of the Colt Sporter HBAR, or can it have a light counter barrel? My take on it is that it has to be an HBAR so it does not fall under one of the other AR-15 models that are banned. I'd like to hear any reasoning on why it does not need to be HBAR.

outrider58 · Jul 11, 2016

fabsroman said:
So, what is the answer? Does an SBR need to be a copy of the Colt Sporter HBAR, or can it have a light counter barrel? My take on it is that it has to be an HBAR so it does not fall under one of the other AR-15 models that are banned. I'd like to hear any reasoning on why it does not need to be HBAR.

Wayne1one said:
No

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

That's good enough for me.

No offence fabs, you're the lawyer. Reading through pages of legalese is your forte. I would bet Nate would have the definitive answer on this...

fabsroman · Jul 11, 2016

outrider58 said:
That's good enough for me.

No offence fabs, you're the lawyer. Reading through pages of legalese is your forte. I would bet Nate would have the definitive answer on this...

No offense taken.

I believe the definitive answer is yes, it must be HBAR. That is why Engage lost its lawsuit. The criminal code section defines an SBR as a handgun when it comes to transportation statutes, etc. in the criminal code section. Now, that definition of handgun in the criminal code section does not apply to the public safety section, or any other code section for that matter, just the criminal code section.

The public safety section makes it illegal to possess an assault weapon that you did not possess prior to October 1, 2013. Note that in the public safety section, an SBR is not considered a handgun when it comes to the handgun roster. The only AR-15 that is not banned is the Colt AR-15 Sporter and its copies, which the MSP has said any HBAR is a copy of the Colt AR-15 Sporter.

Somebody just saying "No" is not enough for me without some justification or legal reasoning behind it. Now, that might be fine for you, and that is alright. We all have to make our own decisions in life and assess the risks associated with those decisions. The tiny bit of extra weight on a SBR with a HBAR versus a light profile barrel just isn't worth the risk for me unless I see something definitive stating that MSP is not requiring a HBAR on a SBR. I have yet to see that. Now, what are the chances of getting caught with an SBR with a light profile barrel that really cannot be seen under the handguard while at the range? Probably slim to none, but the way things usually go for me, slim and none would end up biting me.

I would be interested in Nate's opinion on this, but I think he and I have already discussed it to a degree.

outrider58 · Jul 11, 2016

I read it the same way, but they never actually spell it out,o me way or the other. For the record, my only 5.56 sbr has a heavy barrel on it. One that I've owned for many years. I'm not sure how many barrel manufacturers are making short Hbars. I'm considering upgrading to a Noveske 10.5" but don't think it's an Hbar.

Wayne1one · Jul 11, 2016

fabsroman said:
No offense taken.

I believe the definitive answer is yes, it must be HBAR. That is why Engage lost its lawsuit. The criminal code section defines an SBR as a handgun when it comes to transportation statutes, etc. in the criminal code section. Now, that definition of handgun in the criminal code section does not apply to the public safety section, or any other code section for that matter, just the criminal code section.

The public safety section makes it illegal to possess an assault weapon that you did not possess prior to October 1, 2013. Note that in the public safety section, an SBR is not considered a handgun when it comes to the handgun roster. The only AR-15 that is not banned is the Colt AR-15 Sporter and its copies, which the MSP has said any HBAR is a copy of the Colt AR-15 Sporter.

Somebody just saying "No" is not enough for me without some justification or legal reasoning behind it. Now, that might be fine for you, and that is alright. We all have to make our own decisions in life and assess the risks associated with those decisions. The tiny bit of extra weight on a SBR with a HBAR versus a light profile barrel just isn't worth the risk for me unless I see something definitive stating that MSP is not requiring a HBAR on a SBR. I have yet to see that. Now, what are the chances of getting caught with an SBR with a light profile barrel that really cannot be seen under the handguard while at the range? Probably slim to none, but the way things usually go for me, slim and none would end up biting me.

I would be interested in Nate's opinion on this, but I think he and I have already discussed it to a degree.

That was my short answer, NO......... It's been discussed at length on several threads so I just said no..

fabsroman · Jul 11, 2016

outrider58 said:
I read it the same way, but they never actually spell it out,o me way or the other. For the record, my only 5.56 sbr has a heavy barrel on it. One that I've owned for many years. I'm not sure how many barrel manufacturers are making short Hbars. I'm considering upgrading to a Noveske 10.5" but don't think it's an Hbar.

I need to confirm the dimensions on this barrel, but it is .750 at the gas block, so I am guessing that it is .750 or greater throughout. This is the barrel I picked before doing the Form 1. Used 11.3" for barrel length on the Form 1.

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Match-G...-1-7-Twist-Stainless/productinfo/TR-556SBR11/

Now, I just need to find the time to build some of these things up.

fabsroman · Jul 11, 2016

Wayne1one said:
That was my short answer, NO......... It's been discussed at length on several threads so I just said no..

Like I always tell people, the most important question is "Why?"

I guess I will have to look at those other threads to see what the reasoning is. I just need to be convinced that I am wrong.

Wayne1one · Jul 11, 2016

fabsroman said:
Like I always tell people, the most important question is "Why?"

I guess I will have to look at those other threads to see what the reasoning is. I just need to be convinced that I am wrong.

Personally speaking this is like what happened with the SIG brace. The why will get us screwed! We should let sleeping dogs lay. No need for HBAR on SBRs for the exact same reasons that your allowed to SBR AKs (both banned as assault rifles but allowed as SBRs).

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

fabsroman · Jul 11, 2016

Wayne1one said:
Personally speaking this is like what happened with the SIG brace. The why will get us screwed! We should let sleeping dogs lay. No need for HBAR on SBRs for the exact same reasons that your allowed to SBR AKs (both banned as assault rifles but allowed as SBRs).

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

You know what happens when a sleeping dog wakes up though. Just because the MSP has not said something one way or another, does not make it legal. Just because nobody has been arrested does not make it legal either.

Wayne1one · Jul 11, 2016

fabsroman said:
Like I always tell people, the most important question is "Why?"

I guess I will have to look at those other threads to see what the reasoning is. I just need to be convinced that I am wrong.

Some things will never make sense especially when you have a LEA interpreting laws, same as the ATF. They are doing the same as the ATF, just on the State level. Keep asking why and they will keep making Sh*t up... :sad20:

anderson76 · Jul 11, 2016

fabsroman said:
Like I always tell people, the most important question is "Why?"

I guess I will have to look at those other threads to see what the reasoning is. I just need to be convinced that I am wrong.

As far as reasoning goes, the best you are going to get is this: Because MSP says so. If you do some searching I think you can dig up guidance from MSP that was posted up by one of the IPs. As you are aware the assault weapons ban took all long guns listed under PS 5-101(r)(2) (which includes AR15s and AKs) and classified them Assault Long Guns. ALGs are a category of Assault Weapon and are therefore banned. The other main category or Assault Weapon is the Copycat Weapon which is defined as having certain evil features (such as an OAL of less than 29 inches). MSP takes the following position: If you SBR one of the long guns listed under PS 5-101(r)(2) it is not an Assault Long Gun, however, it can still fall within the definition of Copycat Weapon if it has the requisite evil features. How can you arrive at this conclusion from statutory interpretation alone? I don’t know. I cannot think of an intellectually defensible argument. Worth considering is MSP’s history of treating SBRs as something different. Prior to the ban, PS 5-101(r)(2) told you what long guns were regulated (actually it still does), meaning they had to be transferred on a Form 77r. My understanding is that prior to the ban, if you were to purchase a firearm that was already on the NFA registry via a Form 4, you would not submit a Form 77r even if it was one of the long guns listed PS 5-101(r)(2). So there is that. Perhaps, this question involves an issue of law and fact. Maybe MSP’s position is that if you take an AR15 and shorten the barrel it is no longer an AR15. As the State’s subject matter expert in this area, this is MSP’s “expert” determination as to what physical characteristics make an AR15. If you want an easy answer for the question of “Why” – I don’t think that you will find one.

fabsroman · Jul 11, 2016

anderson76 said:
As far as reasoning goes, the best you are going to get is this: Because MSP says so. If you do some searching I think you can dig up guidance from MSP that was posted up by one of the IPs. As you are aware the assault weapons ban took all long guns listed under PS 5-101(r)(2) (which includes AR15s and AKs) and classified them Assault Long Guns. ALGs are a category of Assault Weapon and are therefore banned. The other main category or Assault Weapon is the Copycat Weapon which is defined as having certain evil features (such as an OAL of less than 29 inches). MSP takes the following position: If you SBR one of the long guns listed under PS 5-101(r)(2) it is not an Assault Long Gun, however, it can still fall within the definition of Copycat Weapon if it has the requisite evil features. How can you arrive at this conclusion from statutory interpretation alone? I don’t know. I cannot think of an intellectually defensible argument. Worth considering is MSP’s history of treating SBRs as something different. Prior to the ban, PS 5-101(r)(2) told you what long guns were regulated (actually it still does), meaning they had to be transferred on a Form 77r. My understanding is that prior to the ban, if you were to purchase a firearm that was already on the NFA registry via a Form 4, you would not submit a Form 77r even if it was one of the long guns listed PS 5-101(r)(2). So there is that. Perhaps, this question involves an issue of law and fact. Maybe MSP’s position is that if you take an AR15 and shorten the barrel it is no longer an AR15. As the State’s subject matter expert in this area, this is MSP’s “expert” determination as to what physical characteristics make an AR15. If you want an easy answer for the question of “Why” – I don’t think that you will find one.

Thank you.

outrider58 · Jul 11, 2016

anderson76 said:
As far as reasoning goes, the best you are going to get is this: Because MSP says so. If you do some searching I think you can dig up guidance from MSP that was posted up by one of the IPs. As you are aware the assault weapons ban took all long guns listed under PS 5-101(r)(2) (which includes AR15s and AKs) and classified them Assault Long Guns. ALGs are a category of Assault Weapon and are therefore banned. The other main category or Assault Weapon is the Copycat Weapon which is defined as having certain evil features (such as an OAL of less than 29 inches). MSP takes the following position: If you SBR one of the long guns listed under PS 5-101(r)(2) it is not an Assault Long Gun, however, it can still fall within the definition of Copycat Weapon if it has the requisite evil features. How can you arrive at this conclusion from statutory interpretation alone? I don’t know. I cannot think of an intellectually defensible argument. Worth considering is MSP’s history of treating SBRs as something different. Prior to the ban, PS 5-101(r)(2) told you what long guns were regulated (actually it still does), meaning they had to be transferred on a Form 77r. My understanding is that prior to the ban, if you were to purchase a firearm that was already on the NFA registry via a Form 4, you would not submit a Form 77r even if it was one of the long guns listed PS 5-101(r)(2). So there is that. Perhaps, this question involves an issue of law and fact. Maybe MSP’s position is that if you take an AR15 and shorten the barrel it is no longer an AR15. As the State’s subject matter expert in this area, this is MSP’s “expert” determination as to what physical characteristics make an AR15. If you want an easy answer for the question of “Why” – I don’t think that you will find one.

Good post anderson76.

What's the Latest Interpretation? Do I need HBAR on SBR

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Member

gun aficionado

Eats Bacon Raw

In need of moderation

Active Member

Active Member

Eats Bacon Raw

Ultimate Member

Eats Bacon Raw

Ultimate Member

Eats Bacon Raw

gun aficionado

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

gun aficionado

Ultimate Member

gun aficionado

Active Member

Ultimate Member

Eats Bacon Raw

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics