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  • fred333

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 20, 2013
    12,340
    Just a quick note re the question of whether ATF'll accept anything other than a single, specific address as the "Transporting to" destination on your Interstate Transport...

    Although I've had one Interstate Transport disapproved due to the inclusion of generalized location phrasing, all others, including the one I just received (below), have been approved with similar phrasing. And, interestingly, the one form that was disapproved last year was reviewed by the same reviewer that just approved this one. So I think either the agents aren't paying attention (unlikely) or there isn't a hard-and-fast rule governing the specifics of where—within a state—NFA stuff can be transported to.
     

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    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    If I'm staying at a hotel/motel, I give that address. If I'm staying with family, I give that address. I wouldn't have any idea what is acceptable, but I've never had any of mine disallowed.
     

    c3nthusiast

    Member
    Jan 30, 2014
    14
    Just pick a range or friends house in VA. Once it's in VA you're good anywhere in VA. 5320.20 is simply informing ATF that the item has crossed into another state. I date mine for 1 year to allow back and forth travel.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Just pick a range or friends house in VA. Once it's in VA you're good anywhere in VA. 5320.20 is simply informing ATF that the item has crossed into another state. I date mine for 1 year to allow back and forth travel.

    And how do you figure that is legal?????
     

    JsbsMarine

    Member
    Sep 11, 2015
    5
    I've placed locations for 5320s as a local range in MD, PA, and NC and have been good for a year since the requesting date. Visiting other locations in that state is fine as long as the ATF is informed you're taking it said state.
     

    KH195

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 10, 2013
    1,550
    Virginia
    I've placed locations for 5320s as a local range in MD, PA, and NC and have been good for a year since the requesting date. Visiting other locations in that state is fine as long as the ATF is informed you're taking it said state.

    All very interesting, because I've had several 5320s rejected because I listed more than one address (within the same state) on the same form. In talking to two different investigators as a result of the rejections, they stated they needed a separate form submitted for EVERY address within the state I was requesting transfer to. Will have to give the "all lawful locations within" a shot though.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Because the ATF approves the forms that way, and it's legal.

    The post I was replying to stated that if you file a Form 20 for ONE specific location in a state, you are legal to transport to ANY location within that state.

    This is the first time I have seen that stated.

    Yes, BATFE has approved forms that had an address, PLUS the words "and any lawful location in the state." If approved that way, yes you can take it anywhere in that state. But if BATFE is kicking back forms with those words, how do you explain that those words are not needed????
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    I've placed locations for 5320s as a local range in MD, PA, and NC and have been good for a year since the requesting date. Visiting other locations in that state is fine as long as the ATF is informed you're taking it said state.

    Where is your justification that any other location is a given state is OK?

    Show me where BATFE says that ANYWHERE.
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    The post I was replying to stated that if you file a Form 20 for ONE specific location in a state, you are legal to transport to ANY location within that state.

    This is the first time I have seen that stated.

    Yes, BATFE has approved forms that had an address, PLUS the words "and any lawful location in the state." If approved that way, yes you can take it anywhere in that state. But if BATFE is kicking back forms with those words, how do you explain that those words are not needed????

    Sorry, I missed what you were replying to.

    Unfortunately, this is one of those times when ATF is totally inconsistent. From reading around a little, apparently sometimes (or some examiners) they will approve the "all other locations" wording, and sometimes they won't. Sometimes they have told people "you need a separate 5320.20 for each address," and sometimes they have told people "just fill out one per state." It seems to be the usual ATF BS.

    That said, though (and IANAL and all that, and forgive me because this is going to get long):

    There is no statutory or regulatory basis for the ATF to control which addresses within a state you are allowed to have the NFA items at. (As a side note, this is also why they can only "request" that you notify them of an in-state address change, not demand it.) If you look at the instructions on the 5320.20 itself there is nothing there about address requirements other than the initial one.

    In fact, instruction (a) says:
    A written request and prior authorization from ATF to transport interstate or in foreign commerce any destructive device, machinegun, short-barreled rifle, or short-barreled shotgun is required under the provisions of section 922 (a)(4), Title 18, U.S.C., and Section 478.28, Title 27, CFR. A letter of request, in duplicate, containing all information required on this form, may be submitted in lieu of the form.

    So basically, ATF can't even legally require you to use the 5320.20, and they admit it in the last sentence, because there is nothing in either the USC or the CFR that says you have to use this particular form. (Now, we all know what will happen if you just write a letter like you used to and like the law says you can, but this is the same bureaucratic overreach that they've been guilty of for years.)

    Here are the applicable sections of law that give them this power. The section from the USC (United States Code) is the statutory basis of the ATF's power here, and the section from the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) is the regulatory method by which they carry out that power.

    Title 18 USC said:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    (4) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, to transport in interstate or foreign commerce any destructive device, machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986), short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, except as specifically authorized by the Attorney General consistent with public safety and necessity;

    This is the statutory basis for their power here, and it just says that you can't transport interstate without permission from the AG of the US.

    Section 478.28 said:
    (a) The Director may authorize a person to transport in interstate or foreign commerce any destructive device, machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, if he finds that such transportation is reasonably necessary and is consistent with public safety and applicable State and local law. A person who desires to transport in interstate or foreign commerce any such device or weapon shall submit a written request so to do, in duplicate, to the Director. The request shall contain:

    (1) A complete description and identification of the device or weapon to be transported;

    (2) A statement whether such transportation involves a transfer of title;

    (3) The need for such transportation;

    (4) The approximate date such transportation is to take place;

    (5) The present location of such device or weapon and the place to which it is to be transported;

    (6) The mode of transportation to be used (including, if by common or contract carrier, the name and address of such carrier); and

    (7) Evidence that the transportation or possession of such device or weapon is not inconsistent with the laws at the place of destination.

    (b) No person shall transport any destructive device, machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle in interstate or foreign commerce under the provisions of this section until he has received specific authorization so to do from the Director. Authorization granted under this section does not carry or import relief from any other statutory or regulatory provision relating to firearms.

    (c) This section shall not be construed as requiring licensees to obtain authorization to transport destructive devices, machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, and short-barreled rifles in interstate or foreign commerce: Provided, That in the case of a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, such a licensee is qualified under the National Firearms Act (see also Part 479 of this chapter) and this part to engage in the business with respect to the device or weapon to be transported, and that in the case of a licensed collector, the device or weapon to be transported is a curio or relic.

    The only part of that whole section that deals with location is number 5, which says "The present location of such device or weapon and the place to which it is to be transported;" and it doesn't specify that they need a specific address. Since their mandate here is only to control the interstate commerce in these firearms, once a given firearm is within the state that the AG, through the ATF, has given you permission for, they don't actually have the authority to demand a specific address.

    Whew.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Good analysis.

    However, if the form states a particular address, and ONLY that address, I see no leg to stand on to transport it to other locations within the state.

    Number 5 is what allows "other lawful locations" to be legal, but without that wording, it says, "the place to which it is to be transported."

    It seems, if a single location (address) is enumerated, then you are only allowed to transport to that location.

    You may agree or disagree, but what are the downsides of taken the more liberal approach??
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    Good analysis.

    Thanks. I'm totally an amateur, but I love this kind of legal argument, because it's sometimes an exercise in creative logic. And keep in mind, this is just an exercise in bullshittery for me. I've never so much as filed a 5320.20 ever, because I only came in to possession of NFA stuff this year and haven't taken my SBR anywhere outside of Maryland yet.

    However, if the form states a particular address, and ONLY that address, I see no leg to stand on to transport it to other locations within the state.

    Ahhh, but here's the rub: the statute and regulations only allow the ATF to control "interstate commerce" and "transport interstate." Nowhere do they have the power to control what you to inTRAstate. Thus, though they request an address on the 5320.20, there is no statutory or regulatory basis for them to control where you take the firearm OTHER THAN when you cross from one state in to another. They simply have no legal power over where you go once they permit you to take the firearm in to a given state. They know this, and that's why they used to let you say "all legal locations within state." It appears that someone or someones at ATF right now is trying to do some legal overreach and demand a specific address, but they don't actually have the authority to do that.

    Otherwise, they would be able to legally require you to notify them when you move to a new house in the same state, and they don't, because they have NO power over what happens solely within the borders of one state. The states themselves could enact further controls for address registration within their own borders (see Maryland's machine gun registry for a good example) but the ATF can't.
     

    Klunatic

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 28, 2011
    2,923
    Montgomery Cty
    What Hawkeye is saying does make sense. The Federal Govt. can not regulate intra-state travel/transport. It can only regulate transport across state lines. Additionally, if you are driving to/from a location listed on form 5320.20 and stop for gas/food/hotel room stay/visit a friend are you violating any law? I know I am not driving straight through from MD to TX. I am not required to have a 5320.20 listing a hotel location in Arkansas during my trip. By extension if I stop at range on the way to the address and shoot and then continue on to the address listed on 5320.20 what law have I violated? My understanding was the 5320.20 was a form indicating the change of storage location for the NFA item.

    Many of us use this as a temporary change of storage location to allow us to move NFA items interstate. If the law is, as many interpret, to define the locations you can possess an NFA item it runs contrary to how it applies to your home state. BATF says I can go anywhere in MD with my SBR as long as it is temporary and I return it to the storage location listed on NFA stamp. If I move permanently to VA then I need to submit a 5320.20 indicating transport to new storage location in VA and now I can travel anywhere in VA with my SBR without having to file individual 5320.20 for every location I intend to visit

    That said, you can be arrested for anything and charged. You may be innocent and right but it will cost you $$$ and possibly your gun rights. I submit forms for all the locations I intend to travel with my NFA items. I already have my 5320.20's for the up coming year but I am going to resubmit with the "all lawful locations" to see if they get approved as well.
     

    Devil Dog

    Active Member
    Sep 20, 2013
    587
    'What Hawkeye is saying does make sense. The Federal Govt. can not regulate intra-state travel/transport. It can only regulate transport across state lines."

    I don't know that I'd hang my hat on that. If the way the law has been interpreted for interstate commerce is any guide, then once an item goes from State A to State B it is still considered interstate and doesn't become intra-state vis-a-vis State B.

    Also, the NFA wasn't passed pursuant to Congress's power to regulate interstate commerce, it was passed pursuant to its taxation power.

    So whether an MG or SBR are considered interstate commerce or not, ATF can still regulate it (as long as it does not run afoul of the 2nd Amendment). That's why I still have to pay $200 even if I build my own NFA item here in Maryland from products that were never part of interstate commerce (which would be unlikely anyway, but for purposes of this example we'll assume it to be true).

    That said, I don't pretend to know whether you can lawfully transport an item to multiple locations within State B if you listed only address on the form.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    My question is, do you really want to be explaining this to a local/state police officer or BATFE agent, while holding a Form 20 with a single location in the state, that is nowhere near where you are and nowhere near any reasonable path from your home state to the location on the form?
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    Also, the NFA wasn't passed pursuant to Congress's power to regulate interstate commerce, it was passed pursuant to its taxation power.

    That is true, but if you look at the sections of the statute and regulations that I posted above which are the legal basis for the 5320.20, you'll see that they specifically mention interstate commerce or transportation, which is why the ATF can't force you to notify them of in-state movement of NFA items. Otherwise, you'd have to file a 5320.20 for each shooting range you took one to or any other place you ever took one outside of your house (or whatever the registered address on the Form 1 / Form 4 was). There is no statutory or regulatory basis for them to be able to control in-state movement of NFA items, only interstate.

    So whether an MG or SBR are considered interstate commerce or not, ATF can still regulate it (as long as it does not run afoul of the 2nd Amendment). That's why I still have to pay $200 even if I build my own NFA item here in Maryland from products that were never part of interstate commerce (which would be unlikely anyway, but for purposes of this example we'll assume it to be true).

    Yes, but the sections of the code and regulations that deal with the Form 1 / Form 4 processes are totally different from the sections that I posted above which deal with the notification of interstate commerce or transportation. Those portions of the law aren't bound by the interstate commerce / transportation limitation like the sections that I posted above are.
     

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