Detecting counterfeit precious metals and coins

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  • The information in the original post is...

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      Votes: 18 78.3%
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    • Total voters
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    • Poll closed .

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    When I was a teenager I used to take a pair of tin snips and trim the rim off a penny to make it the size of a dime. I'd put three of these modified pennies in a soda machine and get a cold coke and a nickel in change.

    LOL...

    That's the kind of shenanigans we are trying to avoid.

    Shenanigans.jpg
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    I wanted to focus specifically on bullion, but elaborated into nusmatic coins and possibly into jewelry, not the thrust of my intent or scope of my research. I didn't do the acid testing in my experiments, and I'm not familiar with Touchstones or gold testing needles.

    Thanks to the many kind and much more knowledgeable people who have contacted me and helped me make this more accurate.
     

    Armati

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Apr 6, 2013
    1,902
    Baltimore
    Great thread! Lots of good info.

    Remember, the simple field test is to check your test coin against known good coins.

    US coins will have both sides dead center, opposite and equal. If you look at the coin head on and flip it will flip right side up and centered on the opposite side.

    Diameter, thickness, and weight will be uniform from coin to coin. China has been pumping out heavy gold clad Eagles with fake cores in all denominations with 2014/2015 dates. They also use large Ebay front operations with CA addresses.
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    Great thread! Lots of good info.

    Remember, the simple field test is to check your test coin against known good coins.

    US coins will have both sides dead center, opposite and equal. If you look at the coin head on and flip it will flip right side up and centered on the opposite side.

    Diameter, thickness, and weight will be uniform from coin to coin. China has been pumping out heavy gold clad Eagles with fake cores in all denominations with 2014/2015 dates. They also use large Ebay front operations with CA addresses.

    That's a very good summary, and simple field test.

    If you wanted to up it another notch, have a loop (magnifying glass), calipers, and scale.

    Here is an excellent example of why I love coins with a lot of detail, first this is really cool looking and fascinating coin design. Secondly it would be very difficult to fake this, and easy for anyone to detect a fraud:

    bee.jpg
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    I like my Constitional silver, I like my eagles, maple leafs, rounds, bars, etc. I have favored each over the others at different times. Right now I'm into poured bars.

    There are advantages to each type, and I'm still a novice on this subject, so I like to take it slow and keep it simple. For me, after much research and discussion with some experts, I decided silver bullion (also known as 'rounds') were the most economical and easiest to deal with. I think the 1 oz round is the most universal and applicable to use as 'real money'. I don't have much money, so I didn't pick much up, but I steered clear of junk silver (old coins), and the bars; although the small bars with good markings would have been my second choice. I also avoided 'collectable' coins, as their price fluctuates, and its more of a hobby than an alternative to cash. The large bars are a little scary, because they can be counterfeit more easily.

    Junk silver usually comes in these bags and are weighed for value:

    gI_0_Junk%20Silver%20Bags.JPG


    -

    Silver bullion is what I like most (at the moment, but silver is silver). Most commonly they are 1oz coins (rounds, with no monetary value printed on them). Some are smaller than 1oz (1oz is about the size of a Walking Liberty coin). Some are much bigger. Often the are sold and stored in tubes. A single 1oz coin has been around $20 for a long time, and a tube has been typically $600; price varies daily. Here's someones collection, I don't even have a fraction of this:

    20131126_202439-jpg.299100



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    There are two basic types of 'bars', cast and stamped. Both are just silver, but the cast bars are more plain, and usually have a simple marking telling you it's weight, and .999% silver, and usually what company did the casting. Some even have serial numbers for record keeping. These bars come in all sizes too, but many are quite large. My concern is that a crafty counterfeiter can more easily fake one of these, and the larger they are, the greater the risk. Here's a good example of a real cast bar:

    umicore-250-gram-silver-bullion-bar.jpg



    The other type of bar is stamped, just like a coin, most are very decorative like a coin, just in a 'bar' shape instead of being round. I tend to like these better, because the visual recognition techniques you can use to detect counterfeit coins work on these bars. You may pay a premium for a stamped bar over a cast bar. Here's a nice example of a real stamped bar:

    27086_Slab.jpg




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    Then there are these 'silver bullets' that have become somewhat popular lately. One of my gun clubs is raffling these off all the time. I like the novalty of it, would be cool to have one in the calibers you shoot, but otherwise, they cost a high premium, and do not have the details to help avoid counterfeits. So for me, I'll pass for now. Don't get me wrong, they are silver, and have value, I would exchange for them if our economy turns back to using precious metals, but I don't think they are as good of a currency as bullion.

    6346__orig.jpg



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    Here's example of 'collectable coins' also called numismatic coins. Their value is in their history, rarity, condition, decoration, personal sentimental value (it's been in my family x years), and what these coins are worth to other people. Fluctuates too much, and each element of value can be a point of debate. Not interested for me as a good alternate means of currency. There are different rating systems and agencies that do it. Some collectors can give you good estimates, but they are truly only worth what someone will actually give you right now, today. Oh, and these are the most counterfeited of all, because a single coin can be worth hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars. This is an entirely different field from what I think 'we' are talking about.

    how-to-collect-ancient-coins.jpg
     
    Last edited:

    44man

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    10,129
    southern md
    I have used provident a few times and I am completely satisfied. good prices and pretty quick service. good deals.
     

    slsc98

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2012
    6,746
    Escaped MD-stan to WNC Smokies
    Neat info; however; among the most fascinating things I gleaned from the blogger who chronicled the economic meltdown in Argentina (largely reducing it to sub- even Third World standards) was that, once the collapse was complete (which didn't take long at all) "gold is gold."

    That is, it didn't matter whether someone was trying to trade with an investment coin or costume-grade 14K gold jewelry, as long as it was gold, the cheap jewelry fetched the same in weight as the investment "bullion."

    Fascinating (and deeply sobering) read; I apologize I can't provide a link to it, at present.
     

    Sundancer

    Active Member
    Feb 2, 2013
    623
    Harford County
    Anyone stumble upon any good fakes recently? I try to ask when I see a table with coins (like a fleemarket), very rare to find fakes in my experience.
    I buy ungraded and graded gold numismatic coins and inevitably I come across coins that I think are fakes. I measure and weigh each and try to review diagnostics and even have gone to ANA seminars on the subject and still have problems determining definitively that coins are / are not genuine. I have some I put to the side as possible fakes for one reason or another. A great tool I picked up was the fisch counterfeit detector. Bullion coins - never came across a gold Bullion coin I thought was fake and I have not come across fake silver since all the China fakes were rolling around a few years back.

    Sent from my STH100-1 using Tapatalk
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    I buy ungraded and graded gold numismatic coins and inevitably I come across coins that I think are fakes. I measure and weigh each and try to review diagnostics and even have gone to ANA seminars on the subject and still have problems determining definitively that coins are / are not genuine. I have some I put to the side as possible fakes for one reason or another. A great tool I picked up was the fisch counterfeit detector. Bullion coins - never came across a gold Bullion coin I thought was fake and I have not come across fake silver since all the China fakes were rolling around a few years back.


    Very cool, thanks for this info. I'd love an opportunity to try out the Fisch tool, have you seen their new(er) ringing tool? I'll find a video for you.

    Also, if you have some 'suspect' coins, it would be a great training aid for me to do some (non-distructive) testing with. Harford county isn't that far from us here at Fort Meade. I'm also friends with one of the agencies coin club officers; he's looked over many coins (of friends) with me. Perhaps the three of us can get together for lunch and check out some of your more interesting coins?

     

    Sundancer

    Active Member
    Feb 2, 2013
    623
    Harford County
    Very cool, thanks for this info. I'd love an opportunity to try out the Fisch tool, have you seen their new(er) ringing tool? I'll find a video for you.

    Also, if you have some 'suspect' coins, it would be a great training aid for me to do some (non-distructive) testing with. Harford county isn't that far from us here at Fort Meade. I'm also friends with one of the agencies coin club officers; he's looked over many coins (of friends) with me. Perhaps the three of us can get together for lunch and check out some of your more interesting coins?


    I will pm you re the fisch. At some point, when my busy season ends I'd like to take you up on the offer. I didn't realize they had the ringer for gold - I'll check that out!

    Sent from my STH100-1 using Tapatalk
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    Quick update.

    I purchased a couple replica coins of older 1800's coins so I can compare them to the real coins for counterfeit detection. They look really good, but with visual inspection alone you can tell they are not authentic/period coins with collectible value.


    I also just ordered this from Massdrop, I like that its super simple to use, and unlike a loop, it will display the image so you can point out exactly what you are looking at during the visual inspection. With this little microscope you can also take pictures and record videos for educational purposes. This would probably be great for all kinds of other hobbies and educational purposes:

    Elecrow Digital 1-600x Microscope (4.3-Inch Screen)

    Use this code to go directly to the Massdrop deal, it was the best deal I could find (you do have to create an account to see the price, which is currently at $60, but will go down if more people commit to buying them):
    http://dro.ps/b/2wafx79/l


    pcbanner_20170822102918.jpg

    There are currently 5 days left on this drop.
     

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