Detecting counterfeit precious metals and coins

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  • The information in the original post is...

    • Excellent

      Votes: 18 78.3%
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      Votes: 4 17.4%
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    • Total voters
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    • Poll closed .

    Half-cocked

    Senior Meatbag
    Mar 14, 2006
    23,937
    This is great information.

    One minor nit to pick:

    You will also need a list of known coin weights. And if it is a bullion or bar, the weight will be inscribed, remember 1 troy ounce = 31.103 grams; but most scales will convert for you.

    Remember, many gold bullion coins, like the Krugerrand and America's Gold Eagle, contain 1 troy ounce of gold, but have added copper and/or silver, for durability. Pure gold is extremely soft, like lead.

    The 1 oz. American Gold Eagle and the Krugerrand weigh 1.0909 troy oz, or 33.930 grams, and contain 1 troy ounce of actual gold. Fractional sizes (1/10, 1/4, 1/2 oz.) vary accordingly.

    Other pure gold bullion coins, like the Canadian Maple Leaf, Chinese Pandas, and Australia's Koalas and Kangaroos, are .999 or .9999 fine gold, and weigh exactly 1 troy ounce (or fraction/multiple thereof). These coins are very soft so don't carry them around in your pocket, jingling around with your other change. :D

    SILVER bullion coins always contain .999 or .9999 fine silver, so they contain 1 troy ounce (or fraction/multiple thereof, as marked) of silver.
     

    mranaya

    Task Force Sunny, 2009
    Jun 19, 2011
    996
    Hanover MD
    Dangit! Wish I'd read this sooner. I think I own a couple of wooden nickles! In all seriousness, this really helps. I would have NEVER thought to check or even guessed that the Chinese were making realistic fakes. Wonder how many of us have been taken over the years.
     

    Sundancer

    Active Member
    Feb 2, 2013
    623
    Harford County
    Excellent summary. I recommend getting the scale, some calipers, a loupe and a good counterfeit detection guide - I use a Whitman guide. See www.wizardcoinsupply.com. Never buy on ebay from anyone not allowing returns and only from folks with lots of feedback. Personally I deal with a local shop in Timonium that has a great rep.
     

    tony b

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 20, 2012
    1,512
    Joppa
    weight is great way to determine. I have seen fake coins and they stand out from the real. Altered coins to make false keys can be a little harder to detect but close inspection is need. If you are going to buy collector or investment coins it is best to involve an expert.
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    This is great information.

    One minor nit to pick:



    Remember, many gold bullion coins, like the Krugerrand and America's Gold Eagle, contain 1 troy ounce of gold, but have added copper and/or silver, for durability. Pure gold is extremely soft, like lead.

    The 1 oz. American Gold Eagle and the Krugerrand weigh 1.0909 troy oz, or 33.930 grams, and contain 1 troy ounce of actual gold. Fractional sizes (1/10, 1/4, 1/2 oz.) vary accordingly.

    Other pure gold bullion coins, like the Canadian Maple Leaf, Chinese Pandas, and Australia's Koalas and Kangaroos, are .999 or .9999 fine gold, and weigh exactly 1 troy ounce (or fraction/multiple thereof). These coins are very soft so don't carry them around in your pocket, jingling around with your other change. :D

    SILVER bullion coins always contain .999 or .9999 fine silver, so they contain 1 troy ounce (or fraction/multiple thereof, as marked) of silver.

    Good input thanks.

    Eureka! I found it! I see now where someone might have read what I posted differently, glad you clarified. I did know a Troy ounce is used to measure precious metals and gems is slightly different than what we use as an ounce for practically everything else. This is why I first said you need to know the specific weight for the coin you are examining.

    I'm no expert, but I've been reading a lot and have been doing some experimenting at home. Testing specific gravity should ideally be done at 39 f degrees, motionless, with pure water, etc. My countertop experiments not following these strict procedures reveal I could still typically get within 0.1 - 0.3 of a known metals specific density. I don't think this is sufficient accuracy to differentiate between 22 and 24 ct; perhaps I'll test this in the future if I had samples. I would only need to compare two new gold coins, one of each 22 & 24 carets.


    The Discovery of Specific Gravity:
    The discovery of specific gravity makes for an interesting story. Sometime around 250 B.C., the Greek mathematician Archimedes was given the task of determining whether a craftsman had defrauded King Heiro II of Syracuse. The king had provided a metal smith with gold to make a crown. The king suspected that the metal smith had added less valuable silver to crown and kept some of the gold for himself. The crown weighed the same as other crowns but due to its intricate designs it was impossible to measure the exact volume of the crown so its density could be determined. The king challenged Archimedes to determine if the crown was pure gold. Archimedes had no immediate answer and pondered this question for sometime.

    One day while entering a bath, he noticed that water spilled over the sides of the pool, and realized that the amount of water that spilled out was equal in volume to the space that his body occupied. He realized that a given mass of silver would occupy more space than an equivalent mass of gold. Archimedes first weighed the crown and weighed out an equal mass of pure gold. Then he placed the crown in a full container of water and the pure gold in a container of water. He found that more water spilled over the sides of the tub when the craftsman’s crown was submerged. It turned out that the craftsman had been defrauding the King! Legend has it that Archimedes was so excited about his discovery that he ran naked through the streets of Sicily shouting Eureka! Eureka! (Which is Greek for “I have found it!”).

    Wiki: "Troy weight is a system of units of mass customarily used for precious metals and gemstones. There are 12 troy ounces per troy pound,[1] rather than the 16 ounces per pound found in the more common avoirdupois system. The troy ounce is 480 grains, compared with the avoirdupois ounce, which is 437½ grains. Both systems use the same grain defined by the international yard and pound agreement of 1959 as exactly 0.06479891 gram.[2] Although troy ounces are still used to weigh gold, silver, and gemstones, troy weight is no longer used in most other applications."
     

    Troublesbrewin

    Handgunner
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 17, 2013
    1,589
    Ellicott City
    I am familier with many coin examples and it should also be noted that the acoustical ring of a specific coin such as a quarter is drastically different for coins of silver as compared to the modern cupro-nickel examples. Since there are extremely few valuable examples of cupto-nickel unless it involves an mint error.

    I have found numerous silver coins without looking hard but by listening carefully to the jingle. In a pocketful of change it's very easy to detect a single silver example and its worth listening.

    http://www.pcgs.com/prices/ a good source of "graded" coin values.
     

    joemac

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 17, 2010
    1,561
    West Point Va
    Bump for acoustic ring. After stacking for a while you can tell once you get your hands on it. Wont help if you buy it on ebay. One of my favorite sources with reputable sellers is realcent.org
     

    yellowsled

    Retired C&R Addict
    Jun 22, 2009
    9,348
    Palm Beach, Fl
    Here are some recent scores, Traded firearms for this...

    IMG_2719.JPG


    IMG_2616.JPG


    IMG_1683.JPG
     

    joemac

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 17, 2010
    1,561
    West Point Va
    Lakota Bank rounds. There is some controversy with the company itself but I agree they are pretty rounds. Supposedly the bank stored your silver, made loans on it and paid you interest on it or something like that. They had no ties to the Lakotah native american tribe but kind of tried to make like they did. Just some shady dealings iirc. The rounds are known to be reputable though.
     

    Sundancer

    Active Member
    Feb 2, 2013
    623
    Harford County
    Bump for acoustic ring. After stacking for a while you can tell once you get your hands on it. Wont help if you buy it on ebay. One of my favorite sources with reputable sellers is realcent.org


    The ping is my first test before weighing and measuring. One important concept with some older silver coins are that wear and shaving may have occurred that will make the weight slightly lower. I have seen this mostly on old Morgans.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited:

    BUFF7MM

    ☠Buff➐㎣☠
    Mar 4, 2009
    13,576
    Garrett County
    lakota silver rounds.

    Lakota Bank rounds. There is some controversy with the company itself but I agree they are pretty rounds. Supposedly the bank stored your silver, made loans on it and paid you interest on it or something like that. They had no ties to the Lakotah native american tribe but kind of tried to make like they did. Just some shady dealings iirc. The rounds are known to be reputable though.


    Good info, I'll have to investigate a little farther, thanks guys.:thumbsup:
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!

    Great post, thanks.

    And I thought I did, maybe not. One of two other methods I intended to look into were electrical resistance and tonal deviation. I only briefly started, and it got very technical, very quickly and the more 'field expedient' methods were easier to do and relatively effective.

    Funny, but today while having lunch with a chapter of Disabled American Veterans (DAV); I mentioned that this is an important topic for many older Americans who wisely invested in precious metals long ago. I'm sharing the link to this thread with them. So feel free to give them a hat tip, or better still consider volunteering to help them drive disabled vets to the hospital or anything you can do to help! That would be a great way to thank me for sharing all this research. :)

    Nemo me impune lacessit
     
    Last edited:

    pbharvey

    Habitual Testifier
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    30,160
    When I was a teenager I used to take a pair of tin snips and trim the rim off a penny to make it the size of a dime. I'd put three of these modified pennies in a soda machine and get a cold coke and a nickel in change.
     

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