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  • Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    While I agree with you that a national gun grab is not going to happen in the near future, I must disagree with your point on Liberals not joining the Military. They are Liberals in waiting.

    The army is chock-full of young, impressionable demographics that absolutely votes for Liberals that look like their demographic. They are too young to have formed stances, opinions, and ideals. They will simply vote the way their demographic parents voted for fear of being outcast by the rest of the demographic.

    As for Liberals knowing where their food and gas comes from. Everyone knows there's a meat and fuel fairy that comes at night and sprinkles meat on the shelves and fuel in their tanks.

    Also, we must not forget about the rubber fairy that comes after he/she destroys the rain forest and sprinkles black, vulcanized, circles of death on the truck's wheels.

    When's that 10k mall thing happening anyway?


    next session likely Jan . No Date set.


    Most youg people have always been liberals. This is not new. But Most 'liberals' are actually libertarian. Hardline conservatives push them away instead of pulling them into the libertarian wing of the R party.

    The issue is are they statists.

    If they are like most I have met they only think they are liberals until they here what they are up to. What they are is libettarians.

    And since so am i it does not take long to show them the error of the statists.

    Divide your world into conservative and liberal and you miss a lot....
     

    pozzo

    Member
    Oct 1, 2013
    73
    Divide your world into conservative and liberal and you miss a lot....

    :thumbsup:

    I think America is missing a lot because of the current divide between the two parties. If you truly value all individual liberties, the current system forces you to choose between bad, worse, and a third party that won't win.
     

    DanGuy48

    Ultimate Member
    If one life is saved, they should want cars, planes, drinking, cigarettes, prescription drugs, pools, ladders, knives, etc. etc. etc. isn't getting rid of all of this worth saving 1 life....


    ^^^This

    If just one life is saved is almost always a BS argument. More people are killed from many other causes but those causes are not at the top of anti-gunner's lists. That's because their ire is directed against guns, not really against lost lives. They're hypocrites.
     

    iH8DemLibz

    When All Else Fails.
    Apr 1, 2013
    25,396
    Libtardistan
    next session likely Jan . No Date set.


    Most youg people have always been liberals. This is not new. But Most 'liberals' are actually libertarian. Hardline conservatives push them away instead of pulling them into the libertarian wing of the R party.

    The issue is are they statists.

    If they are like most I have met they only think they are liberals until they here what they are up to. What they are is libettarians.

    And since so am i it does not take long to show them the error of the statists.

    Divide your world into conservative and liberal and you miss a lot....

    While I agree with you that Conservatives tend to alienate themselves with their hardline stance on the issues at hand, I must disagree with your movie quote.

    It's: "Captain Sobel-Captain Sobel, we salute the rank-not the man".

    Major Dick Winters-Band of Brothers.
     

    EL1227

    R.I.P.
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 14, 2010
    20,274
    Fighting against men who try to take Rights given by God is always worth it.

    I have a Right to defend myself
    I have a Right to defend my family
    I have a Right to ensure my Country remains free

    Come take them

    Exactly ...

    First they came ... And you know the rest of the poem.

    Sent from my Venue Pro using Board Express
     

    Anotherpyr

    Ultimate Member
    ^^^This

    If just one life is saved is almost always a BS argument. More people are killed from many other causes but those causes are not at the top of anti-gunner's lists. That's because their ire is directed against guns, not really against lost lives. They're hypocrites.

    Or ignorant.

    More kids die in swimming pools each year than are killed by guns.

    Historical evidence seems to indicate that there is a spike in gun related violence soon after gun control laws are enacted. So if they're trying to save a life, all I can say is they're doing it wrong.

    Information source: Freakanomics
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    While I agree with you that Conservatives tend to alienate themselves with their hardline stance on the issues at hand, I must disagree with your movie quote.

    It's: "Captain Sobel-Captain Sobel, we salute the rank-not the man".

    Major Dick Winters-Band of Brothers.

    I stand corrected on the quote... thanks for the fact check.
     

    mvee

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 13, 2007
    2,487
    Crofton
    If they made a national 35 mph speed limit and made car stereos illegal they could save more lives than are killed by firearms.
     

    amoebicmagician

    Samopal Goblin
    Dec 26, 2012
    4,174
    Columbia, MD
    Can always remind them that Gun Control was how Stalin,Castro,Mao,Pol Pot and Hitler got started.

    haha, as soon as you do that, they ALWAYS, ALWAYS ALWAYS will then reply with:

    "Well, I'm not going to debate the second amendment with you"

    as if their understanding of it is so much more perfect than yours, and they would never dream of correcting your backward redneck misgivings, because that would be rude.

    Neat way to sidestep the whole issue and still remain smug and self satisfied. Par for the freaking course.

    Then again, there are those who, after assault with the shillelagh of reason, will ask:

    "Wait, you mean the banned guns aren't machine guns?"

    Then you may have a chance to do some recruiting
     

    KingGeorge

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 30, 2013
    523
    OK. Define quite a few. Now tell me they will dishonor their oath..

    And Democrat does not equal liberal. And even then liberal does not equal statist. But let's see how it plays out.

    If you really think these folks will follow unlawful orders then maybe we have a problem.. young people are always liberal. Then they find out what the world is like. I was a liberal as well right after fireman and before astronaut ... then I studied history -- they will as well.

    As for your friend in the teams-- I believe he will not dishonor his oath... That s all that really matters.


    If you think otherwise... that is an issue...

    I'd hope they wouldn't break there oath. But as we seen in Louisiana with soldiers kicking in doors and disarming Americans it's safe to say many of them will turn guns on Americans and follow unlawful orders. If you haven't seen the video and stories then you should check it out on YouTube. They even slammed this old lady against the wall and pumbled her because she had her revolver in her hand that wasn't even loaded I believe. Then confiscated her shit aswell.

    So I wouldn't put anything pass anybody in the military. Will all of them break there oaths? Probably not but enough of them will as we've already seen.
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    I'd hope they wouldn't break there oath. But as we seen in Louisiana with soldiers kicking in doors and disarming Americans it's safe to say many of them will turn guns on Americans and follow unlawful orders. If you haven't seen the video and stories then you should check it out on YouTube. They even slammed this old lady against the wall and pumbled her because she had her revolver in her hand that wasn't even loaded I believe. Then confiscated her shit aswell.

    So I wouldn't put anything pass anybody in the military. Will all of them break there oaths? Probably not but enough of them will as we've already seen.


    The new orleans situation was extraordinary, and most of it was police not mil, but the key was state of emergency -- and I think we can concede at least that there was an emergency. it is not clear to me that under those circumstances the actions were unlawful -- that needs to be considered.

    On the larger point what if the commander could not be sure his orders would be followed because some but not all of the service members would refuse. Might that keep the order from being issued in the first place, even if the officer was willing to break his oath (itself not very likely)? Military officers tend to take this very seriously, but I can see that it might not be easy to know if an order is lawful and thus some may error on the wrong side.

    Here is the key -- senior NCO's . The rank and file will IMHO follow the senior NCO's. The NCO's may or may not follow Junior officers , and Junior officers may or may not follow SR officers. If the NCO's hold to their oath the rank and file will back them. I have nothing to prove this. I have never served - its just my gut based on some folks I have met..

    May we never find out..
     

    janklow

    Active Member
    Feb 6, 2013
    880
    The new orleans situation was extraordinary, and most of it was police not mil, but the key was state of emergency -- and I think we can concede at least that there was an emergency.
    an emergency that required people to be disarmed in the face of police (to whom the law-abiding present no threat) and their fellow citizens? i don't know.

    plus, the problem with saying "a state of emergency makes this permissible" means we're then really debating "what qualifies as a severe-enough state of emergency."
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    an emergency that required people to be disarmed in the face of police (to whom the law-abiding present no threat) and their fellow citizens? i don't know.

    plus, the problem with saying "a state of emergency makes this permissible" means we're then really debating "what qualifies as a severe-enough state of emergency."

    No we are discussing how the rank and file can determine if an order is unlawful. Not if it was lawful.

    The NRA has acted and as a result it will be much easier for the police to KNOW that it was not lawful and that opens them up to personal liability under 18 USC.

    Laws restricting the caring of arms during declared states of emergency have also been scuttled..

    So is getting worse or better?
     

    abean4187

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 16, 2013
    1,327
    If Obama wanted to save lives maybe he could try easing up on pumping money into the military industrial complex and the constant drone strikes.
     

    janklow

    Active Member
    Feb 6, 2013
    880
    No we are discussing how the rank and file can determine if an order is unlawful. Not if it was lawful.
    okay, fair enough. i suppose i would say if we're relying on the rank and file to make the call if something's lawful, that'll never really come through for us. especially if being told "well, this is an emergency" makes them shrug and say, "oh, okay then."
     

    KingGeorge

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 30, 2013
    523
    okay, fair enough. i suppose i would say if we're relying on the rank and file to make the call if something's lawful, that'll never really come through for us. especially if being told "well, this is an emergency" makes them shrug and say, "oh, okay then."

    Yup.....
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    okay, fair enough. i suppose i would say if we're relying on the rank and file to make the call if something's lawful, that'll never really come through for us. especially if being told "well, this is an emergency" makes them shrug and say, "oh, okay then."

    You do not know one way or the other.. but every time you call them out you make it more likely not less..


    Carry on.
     

    Omaha419

    NRA / GOA
    Apr 19, 2013
    80
    If one life is saved, they should want cars, planes, drinking, cigarettes, prescription drugs, pools, ladders, knives, etc. etc. etc. isn't getting rid of all of this worth saving 1 life....

    This.

    Throws that whole argument out.
     

    Benanov

    PM Bomber
    May 15, 2013
    910
    Shrewsbury, PA
    The difference is that they're going to get rid of the things that either scare people or have the most impact on people *not* using the item.

    Tobacco smells bad and second-hand smoke has documented health risks, so out the window with that.

    Guns? Guns are scary and used to kill people. No one needs those.

    E-Cigarettes? They're scared of second-hand vapor (which is usually water, the stuff used in smoke machines, and flavor iirc). Given this country's track record with banning substances in the name of more research (Marijuana), they'll be banned in restaurants and bars too.

    EtOH? Drunk people are insufferable. (I agree with this, I'm an adult child of an alcoholic) although they'll probably make an exception for White Zinfandel just so Diane Feinstein* or whomever can continue to have her dram.

    They'll ban manual cars once Google & co figure out how to get the self-driving ones working well. There are already licenses in some states to permit self-driving cars with human oversight; I know NV issues them.


    *I am unaware of the Feinstein's drinking habits. She's just fun to pick on.
     

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