ATF Coming After Firearms with Stabilizing Braces

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  • spoon059

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 1, 2018
    5,340
    Agreed

    If anything, it's just a ploy to 'look inside your gun safe'.

    I'm reminded of the scene from "The Killing Fields" where, in the re-education camps, people were coaxed to confess to their sins and Ankar will forgive them. Well, those naive souls ended up in the field of skulls.
    But that is my point. The government already knows what guns I have. I haven't bought face to face, haven't made my own and haven't brought any in from out of state. They already reasonably know what is inside my safe.

    If they pass this and outlaw AR style pistols, the FIRST people they are coming after are the people who DIDN'T get stamps...
     

    [Kev308]

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 23, 2020
    3,800
    Maryland
    Just out of curiosity, do you think that the government doesn't already know about the majority of the guns you have? Unless you are making your own, they know already. I'm not sure exactly what information they gain by giving me a couple tax stamps. Every gun I've ever bought was bought legally, which means an FFL filed paper on it. Sure it's a cumbersome process for them to determine which guns I own, but they already have the information.

    The other part you mentioned, about people lying and getting a bunch of stamps... don't you need to include the serial number of the lower? Seems counterproductive to get "free" stamps that you can't use because you don't have a corresponding lower to associate it with.

    Also, I'm not too familiar with NFA items, but doesn't the Constitution still come into play? I don't think the police can come to your door and force you to present your firearms for inspection. That means they would need PC to believe you are committing a crime. Don't commit a crime and you don't have to worry about a search warrant.

    Am I missing something here...?

    Sent from my SM-N970U1 using Tapatalk
     

    spoon059

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 1, 2018
    5,340

    Asked and answered, I've already addressed this.

    Anyone can knock on your door and ask anything. Did they have a warrant? Don't talk to them. I'm not sure what your point here is. If you've ever done an internet search for any gun part, the ATF has the same authority to come knock on your door and ask you questions. Its called an accosting. The government doesn't need to establish probable cause, or even reasonable articulable suspicion, to accost someone.

    You don't even need to search for a gun part on the internet, the ATF could just start knocking on doors and asking anyone if they have any weapons. Its perfectly legal. Just don't talk to them.

    How does any of this have anything to do with chosing to get a tax stamp or not...?
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,819
    But that is my point. The government already knows what guns I have. I haven't bought face to face, haven't made my own and haven't brought any in from out of state. They already reasonably know what is inside my safe.

    If they pass this and outlaw AR style pistols, the FIRST people they are coming after are the people who DIDN'T get stamps...
    Have you never built out an AR lower?
     

    spoon059

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 1, 2018
    5,340
    Uppers can be stamped.
    They can... but the uppers that I have purchases or assembled separately don't have a serial number. And this is a thread about stamping a lower receiver so I don't understand the current concern over the upper. Even then... what does it matter? The ATF can simply declare pistol or SBR uppers illegal, then subpoena all the major manufacturers of AR atyle uppers and find out who bought them anyways.

    My point is... they already have the information. What am I giving them that they don't already have?
     

    spoon059

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 1, 2018
    5,340
    Have you never built out an AR lower?
    Yes I have, but I bought them through an FFL. The government already knows that I have it. They already have a copy of my ID.
    Then I bought a parts kit from a major manufacturer. Online or in person with cash, there is a receipt somewhere.
    Then I bought a SBR pistol brace from a major distributor. Again... online or in person, there is a receipt.

    If the ATF declares all of these illegal tomorrow, all it takes is a subpoena to demand records from the manufacturer and distributor. They know that I am in possession of "illegal" parts that could become a "banned" pistol lower. Now they have probable cause to obtain a search warrant for my residence, because it is likely that I maintain these things at my residence.

    So... what do I gain by hiding from the gov't? What do I lose by acknowleding I have what they already know I have?
     

    [Kev308]

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 23, 2020
    3,800
    Maryland
    Asked and answered, I've already addressed this.

    Anyone can knock on your door and ask anything. Did they have a warrant? Don't talk to them. I'm not sure what your point here is. If you've ever done an internet search for any gun part, the ATF has the same authority to come knock on your door and ask you questions. Its called an accosting. The government doesn't need to establish probable cause, or even reasonable articulable suspicion, to accost someone.

    You don't even need to search for a gun part on the internet, the ATF could just start knocking on doors and asking anyone if they have any weapons. Its perfectly legal. Just don't talk to them.

    How does any of this have anything to do with chosing to get a tax stamp or not...?
    warrant no, but having armed goons coming by your house to intimidate legally owned firearms isn't ok either.

    JuSt DoN't BrEaK tHe LaW aNd YoU hAvE NoThInG tO woRrY aBoUt.
     

    spoon059

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 1, 2018
    5,340
    warrant no, but having armed goons coming by your house to intimidate legally owned firearms isn't ok either.

    JuSt DoN't BrEaK tHe LaW aNd YoU hAvE NoThInG tO woRrY aBoUt.
    I never once said that it was okay, so please don't suggest that I am cool with it. My point is that they already have the legal authority to do what they are doing... because they don't need any legal authority to do it. They are free to come ask anything they want, I am free to decline to provide any information to them.

    I don't understand your argument. They are doing it already. Getting a tax stamp won't change what they have already been doing...

    Anywho... time to take my daughter to her softball game. Can't imagine the responses that will be waiting for me when I get back home.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,819
    The spirit of this thread is not about breaking any laws. The spirit of this thread is about legal gun owners becoming illegal gun owners with nothing more than a stroke of a pen.
     

    Mr. Ed

    This IS my Happy Face
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2009
    7,899
    Edgewater
    All this thread has done is confuse me.

    TD
    Me too. Seems like nobody has any factual answers yet, but there are lots of opinions, and some are very well informed. If I didn't have a lot of time and fundage invested, I'd be tempted to toss the affected items into the middle of the bay and be done with worrying about it. Otherwise, it's a wait and see process to see if this horrible rule will be enacted.

    I imagine an enterprising FFL could make a fortune at some point in the future building compliance into affected braced pistols, or at least selling the accessories to do it. And that might work well until the ATF decides to reverse their previously reversed ruling and make braces legal again, after the likely SC challenge. ARGH.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,819
    But that is my point. The government already knows what guns I have. I haven't bought face to face, haven't made my own and haven't brought any in from out of state. They already reasonably know what is inside my safe.

    If they pass this and outlaw AR style pistols, the FIRST people they are coming after are the people who DIDN'T get stamps...
    How will they know who they are?
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,073
    Howeird County
    Again... what does this mean?

    Sent from my SM-N970U1 using Tapatalk

    First off, I never said YOU are a horrible person. The concept and mindset of "*** I *** am not affected so *** I *** dont care" is in my opinion a big part of the problem. It IS a slippery slope argument, however history has proven that gun control is a death by a thousand cuts type battle. Keep gun owners divided and apathetic, dangle a carrot once in a while, and the infringements will continue.

    I will itemize below, but please read this article first.


    #1 Every single gun that *** I *** have bought has been purchased from an FFL and the gov't already knows. You said, "get a bunch of them free tax stamps where the AFT records all of my personal information so they know exactly where to go when they change their mind again." The gov't already knows exactly what I have. They already know my information. What does acquiring a "free" tax stamp give them that they don't already have? Again, I am speaking about myself and myself only. I don't particularly care what others intend to do.

    For starters, the FEDERAL government doesnt know what you have because, by federal law, a federal gun registry is illegal. In fact, 18 USC 926 specifically makes a gun registry illegal for the states, as well. (So i am kind of surprised that the 2013 MD law requiring registration hasnt been challenged.)

    That said NFA items ARE part of a registry that IS searchable.
    #2 I'm not sure I follow where you are going. I know of nothing that requires the upper to be stamped... it is the LOWER that is considered the regulated firearm. But again, *** I *** don't have any 80% lowers, so this concern doesn't affect me. Your comment was that I am "the enemy" for considering getting a tax stamp.
    No, it is the attitude of "IDGAF because it doesnt affect me" that makes you "the enemy of the 2A". (this really isnt meant to be personal and I am just trying to answer your question in the way it was asked. I am sure you are a really nice person)
    #3 Anyone can come knock on anyone's door and ask any questions they want. I am under no obligation to speak with them or supply anything. I intend to do things legally, so I am not concerned with the ATF or locals coming and asking questions... but I also will not allow a fishing expedition at my house.

    If I were an AFT agent (I am not) and I wanted PC to search your residence I would simply use any evidence I could find that shows you left your state of residence. Since NFA items cannot cross state lines without prior approval from the AFT, my PC would be that I believed that NFA items had crossed state lines without approval based on the fact that you own NFA items and have travelled out of state. You wouldnt be able to produce approval because you didnt take an NFA item out of state. Because NFA items are super scary weapons like machine guns, suppressors, SBRs and SBS, Judges have a tendency to err towards upholding PC like this.

    Without the amnesty NFA, the PC falls apart because crossing state lines with a firearm IS federally protected by law.

    #4 Cute... you state that I am missing something but don't indicate what I am missing. If you are trying to be helpful and educate, you're doing it wrong. If you are trying to be a smartalec... you're doing great.

    Something you missed that I havent mentioned: Legal ways people can have obtained a firearm without registration: 80%, bequeath, moved into the state before 2013, f2f transfer, legacy firearms that are too old to be registered, etc etc.

    How about this: Post 2013 in Maryland when people tried to register "banned" assault rifles and couldnt prove to the MSP that they owned it prior to Oct 2013, guess who showed up at their front door with a warrant to seize the newly illegal assault rifle/shotgun/handgun. (sometimes they would order the person seeking registration to remove it from the state and then ask for proof of compliance. Failure to provide proof would initiate a search.) This is just one example of how these registration schemes are used against legal gun owners.

    Your statement was a blanket statement that anyone that gets a stamp is a fool and an enemy. Your statement was a blanket statement that anyone complying with this was giving the gov't personal information. My question was simple, yet unanswered by you...

    I've bought all guns through FFLs and filled out Maryland's paperwork. They already know what I have. They already know where I live. I also have a form 4 suppressor application on file. What personal information would I possibly be providing to them that they don't already have???

    If the ATF were to go through with this and provide a tax stamp, how am I the "enemy" if I choose to accept it?

    I'm not asking for your fringe scenarios. You made broad brush statements that NOBODY should do it, I am questioning that statement. If **YOU** chose not to apply, good for you. But why am ** I ** a horrible person if I chose to apply?

    Again, not a horrible person. When you purchase a firearm, your 4473 is kept by the FFL for 20 years. If the FFL goes out of business then those records are sent to the AFT and scanned into a non-searchable database. Maryland is supposedly prohibited from keeping a firearm registry per federal law.

    Choosing to register with a tax stamp means that your firearm is absolutely part of both a federal and state registry that IS searchable and should the AFT decide to pass another law (oops, I mean change their mind) about what is illegal, you have given them an easy way for them to enforce it.

    Hope this helps your understanding.
     
    Last edited:

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    First off, I never said YOU are a horrible person. The concept and mindset of "*** I *** am not affected so *** I *** dont care" is in my opinion a big part of the problem. It IS a slippery slope argument, however history has proven that gun control is a death by a thousand cuts type battle. Keep gun owners divided and apathetic, dangle a carrot once in a while, and the infringements will continue.

    I will itemize below, but please read this article first.




    For starters, the FEDERAL government doesnt know what you have because, by federal law, a federal gun registry is illegal. In fact, 18 USC 926 specifically makes a gun registry illegal for the states, as well. (So i am kind of surprised that the 2013 MD law requiring registration hasnt been challenged.)

    That said NFA items ARE part of a registry that IS searchable.

    No, it is the attitude of "IDGAF because it doesnt affect me" that makes you "the enemy of the 2A". (this really isnt meant to be personal and I am just trying to answer your question in the way it was asked. I am sure you are a really nice person)


    If I were an AFT agent (I am not) and I wanted PC to search your residence I would simply use any evidence I could find that shows you left your state of residence. Since NFA items cannot cross state lines without prior approval from the AFT, my PC would be that I believed that NFA items had crossed state lines without approval based on the fact that you own NFA items and have travelled out of state. You wouldnt be able to produce approval because you didnt take an NFA item out of state.

    Without the amnesty NFA, the PC falls apart because crossing state lines with a firearm IS federally protected by law.



    Something you missed that I havent mentioned: Legal ways people can have obtained a firearm without registration: 80%, bequeath, moved into the state before 2013, f2f transfer, legacy firearms that are too old to be registered, etc etc.



    Again, not a horrible person. When you purchase a firearm, your 4473 is kept by the FFL for 20 years. If the FFL goes out of business then those records are sent to the AFT and scanned into a non-searchable database. Maryland is supposedly prohibited from keeping a firearm registry per federal law.

    Choosing to register with a tax stamp means that your firearm is absolutely part of both a federal and state registry that IS searchable and should the AFT decide to pass another law (oops, I mean change their mind) about what is illegal, you have given them an easy way for them to enforce it.

    Hope this helps your understanding.
    Do you have any NFA items? If not, you're about to get some knowledge dropped on you.

    Just because I left THE STATE THE ITEM IS REGISTERED IN on the Form 1 or Form 4, doesn't mean that I took it with me illegally. PC means that you have to have a high likelihood and/or verifiable proof of a infraction occurring. The problem with you is that you think that just by owning a NFA item, it gives the ATF PC anytime they want because you could have broken the law. See, it doesn't work like that. Just because you have the stamps, doesn't mean that you are guilty of anything by default. Your rights are still 100% intact. The ATF knows that people traveling out of state WITH the NFA item WILL SUBMIT THE REQUIRED PAPERWORK.

    Now, lets move on to where I can pretty well say that you don't own any NFA items. "Since NFA items cannot cross state lines without prior approval from the AFT." My response to that is as follows; I won't do that for every NFA item, as it appears you are saying that. I'll take my cans across state lines anytime I damn well wish. Under federal law you must submit a Form 5320.20 in order to temporarily move a SBR, SBS, DD, AOW across state lines. You must also fill out a 5320.20 if you are going to permanently change the location of the SBR, SBS, DD, AOW. Nowhere does it say anything about a suppressor needing to be on the 5320.20, unless it is a permanent change of address for the suppressor. Now, I don't care about transporting any of the ones that require the 5320.20, because you can submit one in January and request it to be good through December. No headaches or worries, just send it in January and be done with it for a year.

    MD is not prohibited from keeping the firearm registry, because FOPA 86, Tiahart Amendment, prohibits ONLY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT from creating a registry. The states are free to do as they see fit for registration.

    Registering a receiver as a SBR that was originally purchased as a HBAR shows where your argument fails, yet again. It was never on the state registered firearm list, because it never had a 77r done on it, and it will only exist on the NFA registry for that very reason. Making wild assumptions about NFA is what keeps people from actually going through the process, because they see the people that fly off the handle, like that you have done and it turns them off from ever getting a NFA item, because they think it is a law that strips you of all of your rights.

    NFA has existed for 88 years now and as far back as I can remember, people like you were spouting off irrelevant nonsense, and I believed it, until a fellow member on here set me straight one day at the range. Maybe one day you'll come down off your porcelain throne and take the time to learn what is going on from people that have already walked the path. There are plenty of those people on here.


    Now, try to go and blow more smoke up everybody's a$$ and tell them it is bidet water.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    I never once said that it was okay, so please don't suggest that I am cool with it. My point is that they already have the legal authority to do what they are doing... because they don't need any legal authority to do it. They are free to come ask anything they want, I am free to decline to provide any information to them.

    I don't understand your argument. They are doing it already. Getting a tax stamp won't change what they have already been doing...

    Anywho... time to take my daughter to her softball game. Can't imagine the responses that will be waiting for me when I get back home.
    Don't pay any attention to the ones that are going full blown conspiracy or NFA STRIPS YOUR RIGHTS crowd.

    Listen to the ones that know about NFA from walking the path, there are a lot of them on MDS, but a few are posting in this thread.
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    If I had such evil items(pistol braces) in my possession, no action would be taken to comply with obviously unconstitutional rules or laws likely to be overturned by higher authority at some point in the foreseeable future.
    In the meantime, they would not be flaunted about. Being inanimate objects, no feelings will be hurt if they spend some time stored away for a rainy day.
    I have a feeling that things are going become much more complex and threatening before they improve, if at all.
    We all know the BATF has been weaponized by the Biden criminal regime, and has no authority under the law to make changes to the law itself which is what they are trying to do.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,819
    As far as NFA goes, I have a few of them. I'm not worried about them. Nothig I can do about them other than return my SBRs back into standard rifles. Easily done. But I also have AR type pistols(not NFA items). They will stay in pistol form. There's absolutely no reason to change them at this point. As I've said many times, when I am able to permanently move from this state, I WILL SBR those pistols. I'm not putting 12" barrels on my 9mm pistols(besides my 11.5" 9mm SBR).
     

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