Anyone necksize only for bolt guns

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  • shocker998md

    Ultimate Member
    May 29, 2009
    1,357
    Snow Hill MD
    Since I have a handful of bolt guns I'm wanting to dial I've read a few trains of thoughts. As of now I full length size old once shot brass. Should I continue to full size since those are the dies I have or should I buy stuff for necksizing?

    Or am I overthinking stuff? I haven't bought new starling or lapua, all my stuff is factory loaded once fired and repurosed by me. Or mil surp stuff.

    Bolt guns being messed with are 308, 300wsm,270,243,22-250,223.
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,383
    maryland
    Complicated answer that involves intended application, desired brass life, and chamber specs.

    I am not a fan of most neck sizing dies. They are often just a regular die with an oversized body dimension. They still overwork the necks.

    My favorite precision rifle dies (off the rack anyway) are the Forster bushing neck bump dies. They allow you to select the bushing size you want for the neck so you size to what is required. If you don't neck turn (I think it fairly safe to say you don't) you can run an expander ball to set your final neck tension. I turn necks for uniformity so no expander for me. This die is unique in that it offers this neck sizing in conjunction with a shoulder bump but does NOT alter the case body dimensions. I find this to be the best mix of easy bolt effort and minimal brass working.

    Second pick in off the rack would be redding type s neck bushing die set. You get a neck bushing size die that is neck only and a separate body die. You size the case body/shoulder in that. If adjusted properly, for brass fired in a relatively tight chamber, this offers easy bolt effort with a bit more brass working than the Forster but still better than some other options.

    Your range pickup/repurposed brass needs to be sized to min spec in a full length die the first time. The stuff fired in your chamber can make use of the above mentioned options.

    Two side notes: the greater the case body taper the more the case generally tends to stretch when full length sized. The .22-250 is a prime example, part of why I switched to the Ackley version. Next, my case necks get annealed every firing for the higher performance chamberings and every other for the more normal stuff. This dramatically improves neck tension consistency and prolongs case life in my experience.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    I neck size using 303 brit die for my russian sniper 7.62x54r
    only neck size what I shoot in that rifle and FL size the other mosins.
    Seems to make a tiny bit of difference. Not nearly as much as working up a load and doing everything else consistent.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    1. " Several ' bolt guns ? All different chamberings , or multiples ?

    2. You'll need to break out your micrometer . You'll need to measure : fired brass vs factory brass vs your current die's FL resized vs SAAMI specs for both ammo and chambers. ( i.e. , determine how much or how little chamber slop is in question .

    3. Not withstanding the current component shortage , initial basic testing is usually better than buying additional optional equipment first .

    That said , how accurate are your FL sized loads, compared to expectations and/ or requirements for intended purpose(s) ?
     

    Swaim13

    Active Member
    Jun 11, 2017
    328
    Tbh, if you are using mil surp or factory (going to guess not the same lot number) you have a lot of variables in your brass. If you weigh your brass currently, it's probably all over the place and has different internal volumes. This will lead to greater issues than what you are trying to dive into.

    While you could spend the money on new dues, you would probably be better off buying a few hundred pieces of good brass like lapua or Peterson. I would start with one cartridge and go from there.

    I would also ask, what's your end goal of accurate enough? If you are using it as a hunting round or only out to 200 yards, you probably won't see a ton of benefit for the cost. If you are trying for benchrest, you will need to get better brass and dies to compete.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,163
    If you just want to give it a try get yourself a Lee Loader, yes the Wack-A-Mole reloader, they just neck size but a number of records were set using them back in the day. If you can see results then decide if you want to go whole hog.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,245
    Mid-Merlind
    If neck sizing improves your brass life, your full-length die is incorrectly adjusted. Period.

    It is extremely unlikely, actually almost impossible, that neck sizing will improve precision in anything except a custom gun with a correctly cut (neck is perfectly aligned with the throat, not the muzzle).

    In most (99%) rifles, repeated neck sizing leads to issues with precision as the increasingly tightly fitting case body pushes the bullet out of alignment with the throat, THE critical interface. Even real benchrest rifles require full-length sizing at intervals to restore precision.

    I went through that whole futile exercise with several custom rifles and neck dies (bushing and fixed), even to the point of having a custom die made to go with a 1k BR rifle. It eventually got though my thick skull that I was both wasting time and working against my own goals. My current long range rifles run ammo loaded on Redding or RCBS full-length dies and head shots (7" x 8" plate) at 1,200 yards were routine.

    Further, any rifle in which feeding/chambering reliability is necessary, full-length sizing is the only way to achieve that.


    Brass weight is not an accurate indicator of case volume. It is most often an indicator of variations in case length, rim thickness and head diameter and small variations in case weight do not directly equate to variations in combustion chamber size. As an added bonus, brass is MUCH denser than powder and any amount of brass weight variation within the same lot of brass is insignificant in terms of powder volume/weight. If you're not running brass from the same lot, any other "accuracy measures" are only masturbating anyway.


    I cannot even tell you how many students' rifles shot 1/4" to 3/8" 100 yard groups with factory ammo that was neither neck sized, nor weight sorted.

    But, by all means, buy into the sales hype and the last century's mythology, spend more money and work harder for lesser results...

    Or (yeah, I know...two prepositions straight), you can streamline your process, correctly set you existing F/L die to not kill your brass, and when load testing discard any brass that created a flyer or change in velocity, the only effective way to cull problem brass.

    ETA: http://www.shell-central.com/Brass_Prep1.html
     

    KRC

    Active Member
    Sep 30, 2018
    615
    Cecil County MD
    Two comments on this informative thread:

    1) Just to clarify, in case of confusion: The discussion of neck sizing ONLY vs. use of a FL die (the OP's post) should be differentiated from the discussion of neck sizing (with or without FL resizing) to control neck tension (i.e. using a bushing die and adjusting neck tension with different diameter bushings.). Controlling and varying neck tension is a significant variable in precision loading. My personal experience has been that non-neck tension adjustable dies (whether neck only or FL) and those with expander buttons produce far too tight bullet neck tension for optimum precision. In both bolt and gas guns.

    2) I have found that Redding competition shellholder sets, which contain 5 shellholders with index heights +.002", +.004", +.006", +.008" and +.010" that of the standard shellholder are a great tool for setting up dies to get repeatable shoulder setbacks to match individual chambers with minimum case flex.
     

    pre64hunter

    Active Member
    Mar 19, 2010
    643
    Harford County
    Could depend on the chamber

    Another variable is it depends on the individual rifles. Many if not most have oversized chambers.
    If the chamber is tight, full length sizing won't over work the brass.
    If you have a chamber cut to maximum dimensions (sometimes over) the brass will expand to maximum size then full length will make them minimum.
    Overworking everything over and over.

    I have, on occasions, lapped a full length die to make a neck die.
    I cut the neck and head off of a case,
    put the case on a close fitting dowel,
    put the dowel in a drill
    put some lapping compound on the case
    and carefully lap the die a little bigger.
    I use a spare die or odd die I got off of eBay or a gun show. It works if you only want to take a little off, you could wreck everything if you're not careful.
    Don't try it if you don't understand how to do it.
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,564
    Harford County, Maryland
    I just adjust the full length dies the case just fits the chamber and allows the bolt to just close without undo force. This will show the shoulder just being bumped. It has worked for good practical accuracy in sporting rifles I used it in.

    E.Shell’s post lends credence on the subject.
     

    Speed3

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 19, 2011
    7,816
    MD
    As always Ed is spot on.

    For starters I would make sure that you are bumping the shoulder .002-.003" with your full length sizing die. Anything more and you are over working your brass that you've finally got brass that shoots the same. Note please recheck the brass after a few firings id bet its not bumping .002" anymore(aka bumping more now). Consistent shoulder bump is important, if you develope a load at .002" and after 4 firings it's. 005", you just changed the bullet jump by. 003" without realizing it.

    Work on powder charges first, if you have a chrono it helps to write down (or chart in excel)speeds so you can clearly see a node. Node means that 3 small groups of charges shoot close fps. Example 308 shooting varget and 175gr smks, you'll likely find a node around 43.5gr of powder from memory. There is another node that's higher around 44.7gr but please work up slowly and watch for pressure signs.

    Once you have powder figured out, adjust seating depth in
    003" increments. Watch the group open and close until you find that node. Im not a fan of jamming and usually start .020" off the lands. Once I establish that, I dont care how far the lands are away, I just measure base to ogive to stay consistent.

    You can get really good results with a full length sizing die. Unless you're chasing bug holes at distance(1k yards) I think you'll be fine. You can get away with a lot at 600 or even 800 yards that you can't get away with at 1k and beyond.

    Another tip I've learned, if you lube the inside of your necks before seating the bullet, it helps with consistent bullet release. I've measured it on a hydro arbor press and found 20psi(roughly. 001" neck tension difference).
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    The one caveat is if you have more than one bolt gun in the same caliber, you need to size to the smallest chamber, or load specifically for each rifle.
     

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