Biden ATF stockpile Gun Owners records

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  • alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    That's been going on for quite a few years now.

    This. It's been the law, IIRC, since GCA '68 was passed. Not sure why it's "news" all of a sudden.

    True, This story is misleading BS. When a firearm is transferred, the FFL keeps the 4473 for 20 years, if the FFL goes out of business before then, they are required to give those records to the ATF. This has been the law and practice for more than 50 years. The records are both required to be stored, and cannot be entered into a registration database, so if there is a court order or a good reason, they have to dig through paper in a warehouse, so registration/confiscation is difficult. They are only records of transfer, kind of the origin of the "lost in a boating accident" thing. No doubt the Biden ATF is not our friend, but this specific thing really isn't anything more than fearmongering clickbait that hasn't been newsworthy for decades.
     

    Bob A

    όυ φροντισ
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 11, 2009
    30,687
    but JoeBama has a pen and a phone, and can be shown how to use them . . .
     

    KingClown

    SOmething Witty
    Jul 29, 2020
    1,154
    Deep Blue MD
    True, This story is misleading BS. When a firearm is transferred, the FFL keeps the 4473 for 20 years, if the FFL goes out of business before then, they are required to give those records to the ATF. This has been the law and practice for more than 50 years. The records are both required to be stored, and cannot be entered into a registration database, so if there is a court order or a good reason, they have to dig through paper in a warehouse, so registration/confiscation is difficult. They are only records of transfer, kind of the origin of the "lost in a boating accident" thing. No doubt the Biden ATF is not our friend, but this specific thing really isn't anything more than fearmongering clickbait that hasn't been newsworthy for decades.

    Negative anything scanned to a digital copy can be searched. Some ways make it easier to search than others but by default this creates a searchable registry which the GCA of 68 expressly prohibits.

    BTW I have water front property and AZ would you like to buy it. I am selling it cheap.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Negative anything scanned to a digital copy can be searched. Some ways make it easier to search than others but by default this creates a searchable registry which the GCA of 68 expressly prohibits.

    BTW I have water front property and AZ would you like to buy it. I am selling it cheap.

    If the ATF actually wanted to make things somewhat easier and more preservable for an archive, they could transfer all of the paper records to microfiche and then store that instead. It would for sure take up a MASSIVE amount less space and also be easier to search, without a thing being digital to comply with the law. Microfiche is of course not also permanent, but with proper storage is fine for 40, 50 years easy.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,281
    HoCo
    So, are these printed copies of the portion of the 4473 that the Fed is informed on?
    For a paper 4473, the fed is not given all the info (or are they). What about the new electronic version where you fill it out on a computer?

    BTW, anyone with a C&R, HQL or handgun in MD, the fed can find you (yes, MD will end up cooperating with the fed)
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    So, are these printed copies of the portion of the 4473 that the Fed is informed on?
    For a paper 4473, the fed is not given all the info (or are they). What about the new electronic version where you fill it out on a computer?

    BTW, anyone with a C&R, HQL or handgun in MD, the fed can find you (yes, MD will end up cooperating with the fed)

    It is the dealer copy with all the data. Any FFL records 20 years or newer when they close shop.
     

    mac1_131

    MSI Executive Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 31, 2009
    3,280
    So, are these printed copies of the portion of the 4473 that the Fed is informed on?
    For a paper 4473, the fed is not given all the info (or are they). What about the new electronic version where you fill it out on a computer?

    BTW, anyone with a C&R, HQL or handgun in MD, the fed can find you (yes, MD will end up cooperating with the fed)
    It's the bound logbooks from all the out of business FFLs.
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,087

    rascal

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 15, 2013
    1,253
    Fearmongering.
    The issue is the ATF isn’t allowed to create a digital repository of those records. So they spend millions sitting them in shipping containers on the property.
    To me on the one hand, I don’t want them keeping those records. On the other, if they are going to anyway, they should be allowed to digitize them and then Destroy the originals. It would save tens of millions of tax payer dollars./QUOT

    i think for any of us who work with companies and government agencies using big data, data mining and algorithms, the concern over this is anything but "fear mongering." That is a wild west world with everyone involved going right up to the line of the law as a matter of practice; with both private companies and government agencies frequently going over the line. We had DNI Clapper in 2013 outright lie and perjure before Congress about Obama supersizing of Patriot Act specifically on the issue of collecting comms and other personal data of essentially every individual in the US.

    Digitalizing the data means it will be incorrectly used, and in fact it will likely be hacked.

    as far as saving million of dollars, there are small reductions in fourth and fifth amendments would save hundred of millions.
     

    rascal

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 15, 2013
    1,253
    Nothing new, the ATF did this under Trump, Bush43, Bush41, Reagan, Ford....as well as all of the Democrat Presidents.
    Nothing has changed.

    Well Joe Biden opposed Heller at the time in 2008, and in 2020 and like most Democrat leaders doesn't think you have a constitutional right to even a revolver at home, even if you have passed full background check. So his administration and the agencies he controls are of more concern
     

    adit

    ReMember
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 20, 2013
    19,499
    DE
    GOA Reveals ATF Has Searchable Database of Nearly 1 BILLION Firearms Transactions

     

    AssMan

    Meh...
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 27, 2011
    16,211
    Somewhere on the James River, VA
    I'm not sure why everyone here keeps saying this is "fear-mongering" or that "it's been going on for decades?" Yes, FFLs have shipped 4473's for decades, but the ATF hasn't been digitizing them for decades. It's not fear-mongering, and it doesn't matter if other administrations ignored it.
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,947
    Marylandstan
    https://www.gunowners.org/onebillionrecords/

    ATF’s Billion Record Gun Registry REVEALED
    After our story broke, Gun Owners of America worked with Representative Michael Cloud (TX-27) to launch an investigation into the ATF leak.

    Representative Cloud led 51 other pro-gun members of Congress demanded accountability from ATF, asking: How many records does the ATF’s Out-of-Business Records Center (OOB) have in total?

    Unable to hide the truth any longer, ATF was forced to respond:

    ""In total, ATF manages 920,664,765 OBR as of November 2021. This includes digital and an estimated number of hard copy records that are awaiting image conversion. It is currently estimated that 865,787,086 of those records are in digitalized format.""
     

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