Federal Gold Medal Shotshell Question:

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  • tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    I had a bunch of Federal "Gold Medal" hulls that I got from a friend. Once-fired stuff that was in good shape. I thought I'd give them a shot at the reloading bench, but I'm finding that the primer pocket isn't seating any of the standard 209 primers worth a darn. I tried 5 shells and got the following results:

    Shell 1: Primer partially pushed out at the wad-stuffing stage, was able to push back in too easy for my taste.

    Shell 2: Primer fully unseated at crimping. Crimp was higher than top of shot despite following the proper formula and checking throw rates for both powder and shot. Using WAA-12 cup for 1-1/8oz load

    Shell 3: Primer remained seated, but you could tell it was just there, crimp was absolute crap

    Shell 4: Primer backed out partially again, messy crimp again

    Shell 5: Primer fully unseated at wad-stuffing stage.

    Needless to say, I pulled all 5 apart, saved the shot, cups, and powder and fired off the primers before trashing the rest of the shells.

    I'm assuming Federal used a euro-style primer for these similar to Rio or Fiocchi which results in a larger diameter pocket? Even Federal primers didn't prevent backing out. The crimps were the real head-scratcher. There would be a pencil-eraser sized hole in the middle of the crimp with shot falling out easily, but when I opened the shells back up and examined the components, the wads were fine (no crushing, not deformation, etc) the shot came out to the proper throw, etc. etc.

    I moved on to some Winchester Universals and Remington STS shells and they all came out perfect with the same components.

    Anyone else have problems with Federal?
     

    Seabee

    Old Timer
    Oct 9, 2011
    517
    Left marylandistan to NC
    I recall that years ago there were 2 different size shotshell primers but dont remember the details of it. There was Winchester 209 and I think Remington may have had a different size but not certain. Could you have a loose primer pocket?
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,245
    Mid-Merlind
    I recall that years ago there were 2 different size shotshell primers but dont remember the details of it. There was Winchester 209 and I think Remington may have had a different size but not certain. Could you have a loose primer pocket?
    Remington 57 were smaller.

    WW are slightly larger.

    At least according to this post - https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/231035-shotgun-primers-different-sizes/
    Your are both correct.

    The older green Remington hulls with the composite base wad used the #57s, which were indeed a little smaller, as were another, slightly more recent series Remington hull. The WW-209 could be forced into the cases, permanently swaging the pocket larger, but often the base wad was damaged/fragmented, ruining the hull.

    The Federals have always been slightly loose with WW-209s, especially the 'field load' style hull with the wound paper base wad, but good for at least one or two loadings. I don't recall having trouble with the compression-formed Champions.
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    The Federals have always been slightly loose with WW-209s, especially the 'field load' style hull with the wound paper base wad, but good for at least one or two loadings. I don't recall having trouble with the compression-formed Champions.

    So these are the compression formed all-plastic hulls with heavy ribbing on the exterior. Not the "Top Gun" stuff with the paper wads. Plastic and metal with no paper or fiber basewad. The thing is, Win 209s, Rem STS, and Fed primers simply wouldn't seat properly. I'm going to pull one out of the trash and see if I RIO seats in it. I only have one sleeve of them though, so I'll likely not load the Feds even if they do fit.

    On that note, I did manage to crank out 100 Rem STS reloads and 250 Winchester Universal reloads yesterday. Not a bad haul for using a Lee Load-All 2 (I seriously only reload shells about 2x per year, so this works, but the MEC rigs are starting to look better and better as time wears on.)
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,245
    Mid-Merlind
    So these are the compression formed all-plastic hulls with heavy ribbing on the exterior. Not the "Top Gun" stuff with the paper wads. Plastic and metal with no paper or fiber basewad. The thing is, Win 209s, Rem STS, and Fed primers simply wouldn't seat properly. I'm going to pull one out of the trash and see if I RIO seats in it. I only have one sleeve of them though, so I'll likely not load the Feds even if they do fit.

    On that note, I did manage to crank out 100 Rem STS reloads and 250 Winchester Universal reloads yesterday. Not a bad haul for using a Lee Load-All 2 (I seriously only reload shells about 2x per year, so this works, but the MEC rigs are starting to look better and better as time wears on.)
    I think BigJohn has your answer.

    Do you have enough empty hulls that you can just skip loading these?
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    I think BigJohn has your answer.

    Do you have enough empty hulls that you can just skip loading these?

    These are one-fired factory-loaded FEDERAL hulls. Federal doesn't use Fiocchi primers. And while I know that both Fiocchi and Rio (as is the case with most European shotgun ammo manufacturers) use a larger diameter primer, Federal typically has not. Hence the conundrum. Both old Federal 209 AND new Federal 209A primers won't fit properly let alone any other US manufactured primer. I haven't had this issue with Federal reloads in the past, but I've never reloaded the Gold Medal shells.

    In terms of having enough empty hulls. Yes. I do have enough empty hulls of other type to reload. It was simply an interesting issue, especially when you added in the poor crimp situation. Especially when you consider I was using manufacturer vetted load data.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,245
    Mid-Merlind
    These are one-fired factory-loaded FEDERAL hulls. Federal doesn't use Fiocchi primers.
    Obviously.
    And while I know that both Fiocchi and Rio (as is the case with most European shotgun ammo manufacturers) use a larger diameter primer, Federal typically has not.
    "Typically"...yes, but apparently not in this case. The Euro primers were suggested as a way to solve the size issue, even though we don't know 'why' the Feds have oversize pockets, it can be worked around.
    Hence the conundrum. Both old Federal 209 AND new Federal 209A primers won't fit properly let alone any other US manufactured primer. I haven't had this issue with Federal reloads in the past, but I've never reloaded the Gold Medal shells.
    All of the "209s" should be the same size. Other than having the cheaper Fed hulls get loose quickly, I've never had this primer issue with any other Fed hull.
    In terms of having enough empty hulls. Yes. I do have enough empty hulls of other type to reload.
    OK, I was going to throw some to you.
    It was simply an interesting issue, especially when you added in the poor crimp situation. Especially when you consider I was using manufacturer vetted load data.
    Shotshells are unique in that there are no graduated pressure indicators we can monitor and so we don't normally "work up" loads like we do for brass cased rifle/pistol cartridges. Sticking to the proven, published data is always the best approach. Normally, we don't want to substitute anything and while my own OPINION is that you won't see issues with this primer swap, I certainly don't blame you for wanting to stick to the published data. Check another publisher? They DO vary.

    The crimp issue is another story and either the wad column isn't tall enough or the shells are running a little short in overall length. Are they actually 2-3/4" long. Manufacturers can make production changes and there could be internal differences in these hulls, which could make the wad column too short.

    I have also seen situations where it is necessary to adjust the crimp station between hull types/brands. Are the crimps flat and open (short hulls/maladjusted crimp station), or dished in and open (short wad column/too much wad pressure)?
     

    K-43

    West of Morning Side
    Oct 20, 2010
    1,881
    PG
    Tallen,
    You can safely deprime those hulls and reuse the 209s. The decapper pin only presses on the primer cup, not the composition or anvil.
    I wish I had a clue to help with the loose primers, but I quit reloading anything other than the Remingtons, Gold, Green, smooth Green, and Black. All load the same.
    I've never had lose primer pockets before. Just over wide or overlong primers - Nobel Sport or Cheddite. Those are just hard to seat the first time and you can never go back to American primers in those hulls.

    Maybe pay a visit to Shotgun World forum. Ask Curly, he know everything.
     

    PapiBarcelona

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2011
    7,343
    I've been loading gun clubs forever, they're just as good as Nitro and STS and can be found laying on the ground and in trash cans just about everywhere

    There's really no point to load 12 gauge shotshell, it's negative profit but it's fun/another hobby.

    I usually get at least 10-15 reloads on a gun club before I just throw them out. Usually after 15 reloads the end of the hull is charred up its a visual thing for me
     

    K-43

    West of Morning Side
    Oct 20, 2010
    1,881
    PG
    I've been loading gun clubs forever, they're just as good as Nitro and STS and can be found laying on the ground and in trash cans just about everywhere

    There's really no point to load 12 gauge shotshell, it's negative profit but it's fun/another hobby.

    I usually get at least 10-15 reloads on a gun club before I just throw them out. Usually after 15 reloads the end of the hull is charred up its a visual thing for me

    :thumbsup:
     

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