Lend-Lease Savage Enfield No.4 Mk.1*:

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  • tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    At the same auction that Mawkie picked up his Gendarme marked Dreyse, I snagged a sporterized Lee Enfield No4 Mk1* that hammered at a pretty fair price despite the missing magazine.

    • Tuns out that the listing info and pictured didn't really give much detail. It turned out to be a 1942 Savage-made Lee Enfield No.4 Mk.1* Lend-Lease rifle that is NOT import marked. In fact, the pressure proof marks are at the tip of the barrel and intact which is great since importers usually cover them up with importation marks.
    • The forearm was chopped with all the stock hardware missing, and to make matters worse, it was coated with varnish over shellac.
    • Luckily, the butt wasn't messed with outside of being covered over, and once I dissolved the varnish and shellac, all the stamps showed up in very good detail.
    • I was able to find ALL of the missing parts with the correct Savage markings to bring it back to life. NOS forearm, NOS rear hand guard (which is darker than I'd like, so I'm going to go for a used Savage marked one to see if it gets any better) used front guard, sling swivels, etc. all properly marked.
    • Waiting on the correct magazine which is on order. I have a pro-mag in there for a placeholder at the moment.
    • This rifle is just after the switch from the 300-600 flip sight to the micro-adjustible sight that the British preferred. It's also right around the point where Savage stopped serializing the bolts to individual rifles to save time.
    • Overall I'm happy with how everything has turned out. The bore is minty and I can't wait to get out and see how it does. Only other thing missing is the front swivel which I had to get re-shipped as they sent the wrong one.

    Here are the before pictures:
    JljsYng.jpg

    3yMmXqX.jpg


    Closeup of the poor finish:
    zWivGp8.jpg

    JE6aVFk.jpg


    US Property Lend-Lease Marking:
    JYbHHH2.jpg


    Savage "Square S" mark, serial with the "c" for the Stevens factory in Chicopee Falls, date stamp, and Ordnance Corps "flaming bomb."
    qJ2ih0Y.jpg


    Pressure testing proof marks:
    m0GKjg3.jpg


    Finished product:
    DFZojFe.jpg

    UFMWJ8f.jpg
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Nice job! I own a few no 4 rifles and they are all manufactured by Savage.
    The serial no on your rifle according o info I have was made in between Jan-Feb 1943. The proof marks on the barrel usually mean they were sold out of service and sometimes you will see one with the word England on it usually on the left side of the rifle somewhere.
    A lot of S marked rifles went to South Africa and will have a U mark with serif's sometimes on the bottom metal or small parts. Some went to Turkey too.
    On the knoxform you can find a crossed SA and a larger U for the African ones. Savage barrels will also a very tiny shell and flame just like whats on the body or wrist but very small. I need a magnifying glass to see them anymore for the smallest types and they almost look like a deep dent without a magnifier.

    I never heard of a bolt being left unnumbered while in service but these rifles were and still are all over the place.
    Sometimes Savage didn't mark magazine boxes or yo will find one with a barred out number and then re-serialed to the rifle thats wearing it and it will be correct.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    It's too bad Bubba got to so many wonderful relics. :sad20: Terrific restoration job tallen702. You should be proud!
    :thumbsup:
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    Nice job! I own a few no 4 rifles and they are all manufactured by Savage.
    The serial no on your rifle according o info I have was made in between Jan-Feb 1943. The proof marks on the barrel usually mean they were sold out of service and sometimes you will see one with the word England on it usually on the left side of the rifle somewhere.
    A lot of S marked rifles went to South Africa and will have a U mark with serif's sometimes on the bottom metal or small parts. Some went to Turkey too.
    On the knoxform you can find a crossed SA and a larger U for the African ones. Savage barrels will also a very tiny shell and flame just like whats on the body or wrist but very small. I need a magnifying glass to see them anymore for the smallest types and they almost look like a deep dent without a magnifier.

    I never heard of a bolt being left unnumbered while in service but these rifles were and still are all over the place.
    Sometimes Savage didn't mark magazine boxes or yo will find one with a barred out number and then re-serialed to the rifle thats wearing it and it will be correct.

    No "England" marking on it anywhere. I've got a numbered magazine coming, but have a bid in on an un-numbered Savage-marked mag that I hope will win it.

    I've seen a few of these without serials on the bolts, most seem to be around the same time as this one (Early '42). The bolt is clearly "S" marked and the bolt head is numbered, so I don't know if it was just some sort of change in production procedures to save time or what.

    The interesting thing about the original forearm on it (that had been cut and coated) is that it had a field repair of a screw through it where the forearm had cracked at some point. Similar placement to an "Ishapore screw" but professionally done (well made cut with a forstner bit to counter-sink, etc.) So I feel like it saw some action to have that kind of damage, but who knows. There was a big chunk missing forward of the mag-well that had been filled in by the previous owner prior to the shellac and varnish treatment. I'll grab a picture when I get a chance to show you what I mean.

    Edit: Here are the shots of the old forearm:
    Filler where there's a cross-screw and a chunk missing from forward of the guard and well inletting.
    aQMktaT.jpg


    nfDyWl0.jpg



    Here you can see where wood was expertly replaced and spliced in. My guess is the screw runs through it to support and keep it tight.
    YJDvqEX.jpg


    jbNAEbH.jpg
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Was it a metal screw, kind of like a weird dry wall screw with course threads? You can find Indian or Pakistani rifle timber that has that screw in them like that.

    I would save the old fore-end because you never know what it will come in handy for. Even if its just for an example for how the draws have been repaired or what they are supposed to look like if they are in good shape. Then you ca copy the work when you get another one, they seem to multiply somehow.

    A British or Canadian fore end repair would have a wood plug glued through that started out square, then roughly tapered and rounded to the diameter of the hole drilled through the wood. Then glued with white glue.
    On the square part you can see the wood grain easier and then when its made off flush you can hardly tell its been done.
    Some of those old rifles have had an amazing amount of wood work done to them.
    They're really fun to work on and then shoot.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    I see it now, If you look real close you can also see where the bottom third of the knox has been patched if that's what#3 and 4 photo is showing.
    They rarely wasted a thing if they didn't have to!
    Depending on how much of the fore end remains a Canadian rifle will be enter bedded if it went through the shops after the war and after it was approved.
    Bubba could have whacked that part off in a fit of deer hunting rage making the accuracy mods needed for the extreme performance necessary in that sort of endeavor.
    God bless him.
     

    mawkie

    C&R Whisperer
    Sep 28, 2007
    4,337
    Catonsville
    Good save! Nice to see you have managed to scrounge everything necessary to bring it back to original configuration. And it didn't take forever, unlike most of my projects. Unusual to find one w.o. import marks. And the pressure proof marks on the barrel meant it was in private hands in the UK at some point. Though I can't ever remember seeing them on a No4 before. On No1s and Metfords, yes. Interesting.
    This is the 2nd auction I can remember where many of the items suffered from poor storage. There were two interesting Finn MNs in this one that suffered from rust, a stepped barrel M24 and a very early 1893 dated Sesty.
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    Bubba could have whacked that part off in a fit of deer hunting rage making the accuracy mods needed for the extreme performance necessary in that sort of endeavor.
    God bless him.

    I just finished watching one of the "Gun Myths" pow-wows with Ian from Forgotten Weapons and the guy from Bloke On The Range and one of the points covered in that session was about how normal sporterizing methods actually make the accuracy worse with Enfields where they can arguably make accuracy better on other older rifles with barrels that are heavier.

    Good save! Nice to see you have managed to scrounge everything necessary to bring it back to original configuration. And it didn't take forever, unlike most of my projects. Unusual to find one w.o. import marks. And the pressure proof marks on the barrel meant it was in private hands in the UK at some point. Though I can't ever remember seeing them on a No4 before. On No1s and Metfords, yes. Interesting.
    This is the 2nd auction I can remember where many of the items suffered from poor storage. There were two interesting Finn MNs in this one that suffered from rust, a stepped barrel M24 and a very early 1893 dated Sesty.

    Only the second one I've seen with the pressure proof marks. Mind you, I only started looking a about two months ago when working on a buddy's No.4 Mk.2 POF. I came across mention of it, but not on a Savage. The only other Savage I've seen so far is one that is absolutely beat up on GB right now It's got a screw in the same spot my cut original stock did and the seller suggests it's a "recoil lug for grenade launching" though I'm somewhat skeptical of that. It has the "England" export stamp on the left side of the muzzle and the crown stamp on the receiver. Mine has neither of these markings. That other rifle also a pre-68 import as it does not have an importers mark on it. Interestingly enough, it's only 659 rifles away from mine according to the serial number. Could have been made in the same week if not on the same day at that point in the war. I'll be interested to see what it hammers at given that the seller seems to be wrong on a few points. It's also worth noting that the one on GB has the early-style low-wall stock that provided for the magazine cutoff that was on the very early No.4 Mk.1 rifles whereas the original stock that came with mine was a high-wall. My NOS stock is also low-wall. Makes me wonder if it was re-stocked at some point, especially as it appears to have been stained or shellacked.

    But I digress. I just found it interesting to see that one come up around the same time I got mine back together.

    As for the condition of the arms at auction, I completely agree with you. Some of the stuff looked like it had been stored in a Mississippi saltwater marsh for a decade. I don't have some fancy climate control system, but I at least have an automatic dehumidifier running in the room where my locking cabinets are.
     

    mawkie

    C&R Whisperer
    Sep 28, 2007
    4,337
    Catonsville
    The British routinely FTR'd their arms including doing upgrades like the No4 MK1/2 so it's certainly not unusual to find lots of replacement parts on many examples. I'm just glad that the British collecting community hasn't gone down the rabbit hole that some M1 Garand and Carbine collectors have. The "purity test" I see enforced by them strikes me as counter productive IMHO. The rifle has a history that's true and if it included being refreshed to make it safe and accurate is what it is, not something to be derided. Though I'll say that I'm guilty as charged when it comes to matching numbers (physician heal thyself!).
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Your rifle barrel has a Np (London proof House) pre 55 proof right on the barrel next to the sold out of service cip marks. For that time period it may have sufficed for import /export marks. English law is that all MOD rifles be proofed prior to sale. The England stamp is usually just right up to or after 1968 when enforcement became more prevalent and can be seen on civilian made arms.
    MOd rifles destined for sell off abroad were usually securely stored before being sold off and may not display export marks from an English source other than the proofs.
    Post 55 will have BNP over/under a crown for Birmingham that is usually located on the body or receiver ring or along the left body sidewall. The deep impression next to the Np is supposed to be a scimitar or seax held by a raised armored arm and its deeply struck losing some of its detail to some extent.

    I have seen very little no 4 rifles without proofs/export marks and older imports sometimes have cryptic marks for proof or sold out of service on the knox flat or sidewall due to that form of gun control. I think some people maybe just assume they were applied when that particular rifle was in the shops. The earlier Le's with all the marks on the barrel knox are indicative of inspection or repair information for the next armorer. Sort of like the swede mausers but done in a way that an unauthorized field mod or swap cannot occur.

    Sometimes they even have marks from other countries such as Germany that appear as little pricks or something that can be easily mistaken for a series of dents.

    When fitting a no 4 stock pay to particular attention to how the draws and butt socket flat interact. Also, have a look to see that the action body does not have excessive movement before the main screw is tightened. A little bit of play can create havoc that in the worst case will split the stock right in front of the main screw. Remove the for-end from the rear by tapping downwards with a mallet, if it just falls off its got slack in it.

    An interesting thing about these rifles is how the barrels are designed and manufactured to be compensated through comprehensive R&d. Earlier marks have a spring loaded screw near the front of the stock to control barrel vibration and no 4 's have a larger diameter barrel to accommodate for the change in length. When you remove the wood or alter the barrel length all that goes out the window to a large extent. Later variants with chopped factory fore-end wood are in nato calibers and designed with the same development to account for the missing wood.

    Earlier on when I say compensated I do not mean something you screw on a pistol to reduce recoil. In this case it means predictable performance through all marks of ammo that can, by the compound sum of the barrel vibration and jump create alignment between barrel position in an angular measurement and bullet position in the last few inches of the barrel and where its precisely at as it exits the muzzle.

    Bloke on the range is an accomplished Bisley shooter and very well regarded in the UK shooting disciplines. If you seen him do the rim lock yt video he seems kooky but has very good control manipulating that rifle dispelling some of the myths regarding chargers.
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    Doco Overboard, you are a treasure trove of knowledge! Seriously, thank you so much for lending me your eyes and brain on this restoration. I'd have had to search and search for the info in books that I don't have to figure out everything that you've told me over the course of two threads.

    I am genuinely humbled that you've been so free with your help!

    The stock on this is tight. there's no slop at all before tightening down the action screw. A white rubber mallet was necessary every time I removed the fore-end to check for fit, etc. Here's hoping it shoots well when I get out to the range!
     

    schnmbang

    Active Member
    Aug 23, 2014
    145
    Looks great. I got a svt40 from the same auction. No import marks either, heard all weapons came from someone in a nursing home kinda wondered where he got all of these
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    Looks great. I got a svt40 from the same auction. No import marks either, heard all weapons came from someone in a nursing home kinda wondered where he got all of these

    So, what's the deal with the gold-colored bolt carrier and charging handle on that one? Most that I've seen have been the soviet plum color.
     

    mawkie

    C&R Whisperer
    Sep 28, 2007
    4,337
    Catonsville
    In my experience the bolt carriers that aren't the original in-the-white color are reworked Russian imports (like mine). Here in the US the majority of in-the-white carriers are found on Finn capture examples. I've only seen one in-the-white carrier that wasn't a Finn capture.
    Enjoy shooting mine but not so much the post range cleaning. Not the easiest to field strip.
     

    schnmbang

    Active Member
    Aug 23, 2014
    145
    So, what's the deal with the gold-colored bolt carrier and charging handle on that one? Most that I've seen have been the soviet plum color.

    From what I could find is sometimes for what ever reason the blueing that the Soviets applied to the bolt didn't turn to the plum color but gold. Some say it might be due to a higher nickle content in the steel of the bolt that caused the different color change. But what ever the reason gold ones do not show up that often over the plum ones. More of a oddity not a rarity
     

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