PPU .223 question:

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  • tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    Rolling my own with .223 for the first time. Gone are the days of old-timers laughing at me policing .223 brass. I saved it all, and now it's a great thing to have on hand.

    Anyway, I just cleaned, lubed, deprimed and full-length resized 200 .223/5.56 and I noticed with the PPU .223 that it was a lot harder to resize (in terms of how hard I needed to pull on the lever) than anything else. It leaves a little ring down by the base which you can feel with your finger nail. I took out the trusty digital calipers and found them to be exactly in-spec for 5.56 NATO (9.58mm on the nose) at the base where the ring is and the metal is thicker.

    All other brands of cases didn't experience this and came in below that number (Federal .223 Rem is at 9.47 at the base for example). PPU is marked "PPU 223Rem" on the head-stamp so it's not even a matter of 5.56 vs .223 other than maybe PPU is marketing 5.56 NATO ammo as .223 Rem?

    Anyway, I wondered if anyone else had come across this and if they had any issues. See attached picture for visuals. Again, dimension-wise, everything is in-spec, so I don't see why there would be any issue, maybe the PPU brass is just a little thicker?
     

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    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    I don't believe I've ever encountered that. I think the only PPU I've ever reloaded was 9mm. I noticed it had a tendency to bulge(in 9mm) just above the case web.
     

    85MikeTPI

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 19, 2014
    2,699
    Ceciltucky
    Rolling my own with .223 for the first time. Gone are the days of old-timers laughing at me policing .223 brass. I saved it all, and now it's a great thing to have on hand.

    Anyway, I just cleaned, lubed, deprimed and full-length resized 200 .223/5.56 and I noticed with the PPU .223 that it was a lot harder to resize (in terms of how hard I needed to pull on the lever) than anything else. It leaves a little ring down by the base which you can feel with your finger nail. I took out the trusty digital calipers and found them to be exactly in-spec for 5.56 NATO (9.58mm on the nose) at the base where the ring is and the metal is thicker.

    All other brands of cases didn't experience this and came in below that number (Federal .223 Rem is at 9.47 at the base for example). PPU is marked "PPU 223Rem" on the head-stamp so it's not even a matter of 5.56 vs .223 other than maybe PPU is marketing 5.56 NATO ammo as .223 Rem?

    Anyway, I wondered if anyone else had come across this and if they had any issues. See attached picture for visuals. Again, dimension-wise, everything is in-spec, so I don't see why there would be any issue, maybe the PPU brass is just a little thicker?

    I would surmise that someone had a loose chambered .223 at the range
    and boxes of PPU ammo that they left for you to pickup.

    I don't think this is a case of PPU brass being larger than normal, but some
    gun causing them to be that way..
     

    PowPow

    Where's the beef?
    Nov 22, 2012
    4,712
    Howard County
    I don't remember PPU .308 cases doing that on sizing. I've never reloaded PPU .223/5.56 cases.

    What sizing die are you using? It could just be that your sizing die is a hair out of spec.
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    I would surmise that someone had a loose chambered .223 at the range
    and boxes of PPU ammo that they left for you to pickup.

    I don't think this is a case of PPU brass being larger than normal, but some
    gun causing them to be that way..

    That's my thinking. These are casings from over 8 years ago that got mixed in (I think there are maybe 8-10 in total out of 316) when I had a CMMG AR while living in VA.

    That said, once resized, they're still in spec and fit the gauge, so they should be GTG for at least one load.

    I don't remember PPU .308 cases doing that on sizing. I've never reloaded PPU .223/5.56 cases.

    What sizing die are you using? It could just be that your sizing die is a hair out of spec.

    Using a Lee. It's sizing literally everything else without any struggle. I think 85MikeTPI is correct that someone was shooting them in a sloppy chamber.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    When in doubt, measure the water capacity of a resized case . ( Thicker brass will have less capacity ) .
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,680
    I haven't noticed it. I've only loaded up some PPU's as dummies. Only ones I've reloaded to go bang have been Remington head stamped so far.

    Though actually the PPUs for dummies were 5.56 brass. Not sure it would make a difference, but maybe they really do use different cases?

    One thing though in general to keep in mind is with mixed head stamp, ensure you don't push to the max on loads. Also you are going to have a higher ES and SD because of the slight variations in the cases, COALs if you crimp and seat in one step, etc.

    Not .223 (because again, I've only loaded .223 Remington head stamp brass so far), but as an example from 9mm. Crimping and seating in one step. 147gr XTP, 9mm Luger.

    With 4.1gr CFE pistol. The SD was 6fps WHEN THE GROUPS WERE SEGREGATED BY HEADSTAMP. Which is how I tested it. I had between 4 and 7 rounds of each head stamp with the exception of blazer, where I only had a single round.

    Winchester brass 1.094-1.096" COAL 948fps
    Remington brass 1.094-1.095" COAL 947fps
    S&B brass 1.093-1.095" COAL 949fps
    PPU NATO brass 1.091-1.094" COAL 956fps
    Blazer 1.089" COAL 962fps
    FC 1.080-1.083" COAL 981fps

    That federal brass wanted to seat real deep. I could adjust it right, but then the other brass was seating at more like 1.102-1.106" range. Which is too long (the Sweson barrel in my Glock 17 will ram the bullet in to the lands at anything over 1.096" COAL. In fact the VERY first round I chambered I had to smack the rear of the slide hard a couple times to go in to battery. I know it was a Win case, it must have seated maybe a thousandth or two longer than the other cases I had measured as I only measured 2-3 cases from each head stamp, not every single one of the like 40 rounds I loaded. Every other round ran fine and loaded fine from a simple slide drop.

    I've noticed something similar with 38spc and 45acp. That when I segregate by head stamp my extreme spread and standard deviation go down and my accuracy goes up. It hasn't been anything as extreme as what I saw with the 9mm stuff. But doing it seems to cut my SD's roughly in half with 38spc and 45acp (might take it from like 20fps to 8-10fps). Now those were using Bullseye, not CFE Pistol. So maybe that is why the difference was less. Or it could be with the 9mm I was loading long bullets so that variation in case capacity/seated COAL had a much larger impact.

    There was the largest variation in COAL with 9mm and those 147gr XTP crimping and seating in one step. More so than any other cartridge I've tried. Only one with similar issues were 38spc and switching to a flat seating stem from a conic one got my COAL variation down to about 4 thousandths rather than the roughly 20 thousandths I was seeing with the conic seating stem. Even with differing head stamps. Comparing within head stamps, conic stem was still seeing about 10 thousandths difference, but flat was like 2 thousandths.
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    I haven't noticed it. I've only loaded up some PPU's as dummies. Only ones I've reloaded to go bang have been Remington head stamped so far.

    Though actually the PPUs for dummies were 5.56 brass. Not sure it would make a difference, but maybe they really do use different cases?

    One thing though in general to keep in mind is with mixed head stamp, ensure you don't push to the max on loads. Also you are going to have a higher ES and SD because of the slight variations in the cases, COALs if you crimp and seat in one step, etc.

    Not .223 (because again, I've only loaded .223 Remington head stamp brass so far), but as an example from 9mm. Crimping and seating in one step. 147gr XTP, 9mm Luger.

    With 4.1gr CFE pistol. The SD was 6fps WHEN THE GROUPS WERE SEGREGATED BY HEADSTAMP. Which is how I tested it. I had between 4 and 7 rounds of each head stamp with the exception of blazer, where I only had a single round.

    Winchester brass 1.094-1.096" COAL 948fps
    Remington brass 1.094-1.095" COAL 947fps
    S&B brass 1.093-1.095" COAL 949fps
    PPU NATO brass 1.091-1.094" COAL 956fps
    Blazer 1.089" COAL 962fps
    FC 1.080-1.083" COAL 981fps

    That federal brass wanted to seat real deep. I could adjust it right, but then the other brass was seating at more like 1.102-1.106" range. Which is too long (the Sweson barrel in my Glock 17 will ram the bullet in to the lands at anything over 1.096" COAL. In fact the VERY first round I chambered I had to smack the rear of the slide hard a couple times to go in to battery. I know it was a Win case, it must have seated maybe a thousandth or two longer than the other cases I had measured as I only measured 2-3 cases from each head stamp, not every single one of the like 40 rounds I loaded. Every other round ran fine and loaded fine from a simple slide drop.

    I've noticed something similar with 38spc and 45acp. That when I segregate by head stamp my extreme spread and standard deviation go down and my accuracy goes up. It hasn't been anything as extreme as what I saw with the 9mm stuff. But doing it seems to cut my SD's roughly in half with 38spc and 45acp (might take it from like 20fps to 8-10fps). Now those were using Bullseye, not CFE Pistol. So maybe that is why the difference was less. Or it could be with the 9mm I was loading long bullets so that variation in case capacity/seated COAL had a much larger impact.

    There was the largest variation in COAL with 9mm and those 147gr XTP crimping and seating in one step. More so than any other cartridge I've tried. Only one with similar issues were 38spc and switching to a flat seating stem from a conic one got my COAL variation down to about 4 thousandths rather than the roughly 20 thousandths I was seeing with the conic seating stem. Even with differing head stamps. Comparing within head stamps, conic stem was still seeing about 10 thousandths difference, but flat was like 2 thousandths.

    This is mostly plinking ammo for me. According to Hodgdon, the minimum load for .223 with a 55gr FMJBT should be 23gr of IMR4895 and the max is 26.2 (Lyman says 26 and that's a compressed load). I was thinking of somewhere in the 24-25gr load which should put me right around the average commercial velocity (between 3,000 and 3,100 fps). keeps me below the max, keeps me away from the compressed load, but gets me fairly typical performance.

    I seat and then crimp in two separate steps. I run a small reloading operation with a Lee Challenger Breechlock single-stage system partly because it's what I could afford at the time, and partly because I mainly reload small batches for hard-to-find ammo at the best of times (eg. 8x56mmR and 7.62 Tokarev).

    It's nice to have for the panic times. If I wind up shooting my AR more, I'll likely upgrade to make production easier, but for now, it works and the one-by-one process keeps me honest and checking more regularly than I would with a progressive press (eg. I check powder throws very regularly starting and then space the check out more as I get further into production. Same with OAL).
     

    Broncolou

    Active Member
    Jan 22, 2013
    689
    Parkton MD
    I have noticed PPU and Wolf brass are a tough harder when resizing. I reloaded and shot a lot of them. I believe its just different alloy content or thicker walled, not sure which but I wouldn't think much of it if its dimensionaly fine......
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,680
    This is mostly plinking ammo for me. According to Hodgdon, the minimum load for .223 with a 55gr FMJBT should be 23gr of IMR4895 and the max is 26.2 (Lyman says 26 and that's a compressed load). I was thinking of somewhere in the 24-25gr load which should put me right around the average commercial velocity (between 3,000 and 3,100 fps). keeps me below the max, keeps me away from the compressed load, but gets me fairly typical performance.

    I seat and then crimp in two separate steps. I run a small reloading operation with a Lee Challenger Breechlock single-stage system partly because it's what I could afford at the time, and partly because I mainly reload small batches for hard-to-find ammo at the best of times (eg. 8x56mmR and 7.62 Tokarev).

    It's nice to have for the panic times. If I wind up shooting my AR more, I'll likely upgrade to make production easier, but for now, it works and the one-by-one process keeps me honest and checking more regularly than I would with a progressive press (eg. I check powder throws very regularly starting and then space the check out more as I get further into production. Same with OAL).

    Makes sense, good luck!

    I'll possibly do mixed brass for plinking reloads in .223/5.56. That said, I might still sort. I used CFE 223 and my limited load workup so far, it really seems to only like near max loads. I was getting SDs of over 50fps and ES of about 100fps in 4 shot groups running 62gr FMJ working up close to max load. I forget what max is, but I think 26.2gr also. I hit 25.5gr (max I loaded to, because I wanted a plinking load) and that's when I hit a 12fps SD and acceptable ES (I forget what it was, like 19fps). My concern there is that mixed cases might result in significantly worse SDs, especially if some of the case volumes result in poor combustion and I don't want to juice the load any more to ensure that the high volume cases run well, if that makes sense.

    But I might load up some mixed head stamp, but shoot them over the chrono segregated and see what they each do. I might also add just a couple tenths of a grain to see if that makes everything more accurate or not.

    My 16" AR is unfortunately not particularly accurate. I've tried several, admittedly cheap, barrels and swapped multiple BCGs to no avail. Headspaces fine. No obvious issues other than poor accuracy. It just won't shoot better than a hair over 2MOA with match ammo and plinking ammo seems to run more like 4-5MOA. Though the load I worked up seemed to shoot just under 3MOA at 50yds with a 3x magnifier on my 3MOA red dot.

    Some day I might just hurl the upper in to the woods and build a new one with high quality components. But until then, 3MOA for low cost ammo works for me.

    My production line is also not super fast. I'll need a life style change for it to matter much. My range trips are rarely more than an hour or two long. I can shoot paper or clays on the berm (plastic spinners with my 22). Max range is 100yds. The range is ~20 minutes away from my house. I've got 3 school aged kids and a 40+hr a week job sucking up my free time.)

    I'll grant the time to reload is also slightly problematic, but a little less so doing bits and pieces at a time. I can usually find the time to run 50-100 pieces of brass through the resizing die and check length for rifle brass, sort what needs sizing. Or for pistol dies, bell the case mouth right then. A few days later find the time to trim rifle brass that needs it or load the pistol brass. A few days later for the rifles, load the rifle brass.

    At least if things go smoothly.

    So probably in a month if I am being industrious I could load 200 rounds. That's generally more than I am going to shoot in an average month.

    PS I could absolutely see myself some day getting a progressive to load 9mm or .45, but I see that as something for years from now.
     

    Seabee

    Old Timer
    Oct 9, 2011
    517
    Left marylandistan to NC
    Ive been reloading PPU in my 7x57ai for years with no issues at all. It been reloaded 7 times. I am noticing a few primer pockets starting to loosen slightly but not yet an issue. I agree, may be just a loose chambered rifle caused the issue. After sizing, use a bent paper clip to check for indications of head separation inside the cases. You will feel it inside just above the case head. That much sizing may speed up the case stretching.
     

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