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  • tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    I was originally going to put this in gunsmithing, but felt it actually fit in better here.

    Here's the thought. If we see Democrat wins in both the oval office and both houses of congress and the continued slide towards Marxism, inevitably our 2A rights will continue to be curtailed. If that happens, eventually we'll see our laws get to the point where even reloading your own ammo will become prohibitive due to various permitting hurdles, etc. Or, let's say that smokeless powder manufacturers can no longer sell to the public and we're relegated to black powder only, what could conceivably be done to ensure civilian access to semi-automatic weapons under this scheme? I would think that primers would still be available in some form, even if just #10 caps or the like, and BP can be manufactured in the home in a pinch.

    I've seen YouTube videos of guys loading BP for ARs, the SKS, AK47s, etc. and they all foul to the point of being impossible to use after a maximum of 10 shots. And while lever action and bolt-action guns can certainly use BP load to greater effect, I wouldn't want to find myself in a situation where a .30-30 or Mosin Nagant were my defensive weapons.

    Thinking about this last night, the solution to me seems to be long-recoil operation. No gas system to foul. The chamber is locked until almost all residue is pushed forward meaning less fouling of the breech, chamber, and throat, and it's an older system that was popular when BP loads were still very representative of the marketplace.

    Something like the Remington 8 or 81 would seem to fit the bill if this is the case.

    Anyone have any thoughts? And, if some enterprising company were to make an effective BP semi-auto, do you think folks of a similar "Be Prepared" mind-set would go for it?
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    Not to be a smart ass, but I'm stockpiling enough ammo and components so that wont be an issue in my lifetime... maybe my kids' lifetimes.

    Not smartass at all. Unfortunately, I have neither the money nor the access at this point to achieve that goal, and if things go south, you can bet that availability will be an issue for the foreseeable future. Which is why I think it's worth the mental exercise to see if there is an option out there.
     

    DutchV

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 8, 2012
    4,703
    Semi-autos didn't catch on until the advent of modern smokeless powder. Why? Because black powder is filthy and a semi does not tolerate that kind of dirt for very long.

    Here's a little reading about an early .22 semi. Remington had to make special ammo just for that gun because 22LR was black powder loaded.

    https://tincanbandit.blogspot.com/2016/02/featured-gun-remington-model-16.html

    Stockpile real ammo for that AK, and get a smokepole for later when you're making blockpowder from scratch.
     

    Pale Ryder

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 12, 2009
    6,234
    Millersville
    If they legislate smokeless out of reach, why would they let you have BP? Air or compressed gas would be better IMO than going back to BP. Something along the lines of a 357 or 40 air rifle. Price may be an issue. If forced to go BP, I’d go 45/70 lever, enough firepower if you don’t try to “spray and pray”.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Right, why do you not already have 4 years of ammo? :)
    And you got it right, Primers are a pain to get right now.
     

    DutchV

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 8, 2012
    4,703
    You could look at .30-30 (.30 WCF) and .45-70, for instance, which were both originally loaded with black powder. Some guys still do it. Of course, you'd need primers, which might be a challenge.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    If we’re at the point where a D-run government is legally preventing you from buying normal centerfire primers, why on earth would you assume that, say, #10 caps would still be allowed?

    If that’s where your brain is going on this, and you haven’t been stocking up on ammo or things you can trade for ammo, then it’s fine to start stocking up on flint.
     

    AssMan

    Meh...
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 27, 2011
    16,214
    Somewhere on the James River, VA
    Ruger .44 carbine maybe?

    Honestly, I’m of the opinion that there will be no shortage of actors willing to fuel a US civil war and that guns and ammo will be available if things get to that point.
     

    Bolts Rock

    Living in Free America!
    Apr 8, 2012
    6,123
    Northern Alabama
    You could look at .30-30 (.30 WCF) and .45-70, for instance, which were both originally loaded with black powder. Some guys still do it. Of course, you'd need primers, which might be a challenge.

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK! WRONG!

    .30-30 was not a BP cartridge but rather one the first smokeless cartridges. The parent round .38-55 was BP.
     

    rseymorejr

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 28, 2011
    26,010
    Harford County
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK! WRONG!

    .30-30 was not a BP cartridge but rather one the first smokeless cartridges. The parent round .38-55 was BP.

    I was under the impression that 30-30 was originally BP and that the 32 Winchester Special was the original smokeless powder cartridge??
     

    Doctor_M

    Certified Mad Scientist
    MDS Supporter
    Not smartass at all. Unfortunately, I have neither the money nor the access at this point to achieve that goal, and if things go south, you can bet that availability will be an issue for the foreseeable future. Which is why I think it's worth the mental exercise to see if there is an option out there.

    Never hurts to have a plan B... or C... or D.

    But I'll tell you what, brother, if the spam hits the fan and you find yourself without an adequate supply of self-defense pills... I'll hook you up :thumbsup:
     

    newmuzzleloader

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 14, 2009
    4,765
    joppa
    I was under the impression that 30-30 was originally BP and that the 32 Winchester Special was the original smokeless powder cartridge??

    Are you getting confused with 32.20 maybe?
    Started out as 20gr black powder now smokeless. Was loaded in both long guns and revolvers.
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,102
    In the boonies of MoCo
    I was under the impression that 30-30 was originally BP and that the 32 Winchester Special was the original smokeless powder cartridge??

    Funny enough, I was just reading up on that the other day. The name 30-30 refers to .30 caliber propelled by roughly .30 grains of what was, at the time, a brand-new technology called "smokeless powder."

    I was thinking it was more along the lines of a date or whatnot, which is why that info stuck.


    As to the question of why I think the Gov't would "let us" have black powder, it's not about letting, it's about the fact that we pretty much have the ability to make it at home from (fairly) common ingredients. Smokeless, not so much.

    In regards to why the D's would "let" us have percussion caps, it's kind of the same thing. Percussion caps can be made from some fairly common items as well and it wouldn't take much to modify on-hand brass to accept them in the place of modern smokeless primers.

    As Doctor_M said, it's never a bad idea to have a plan B, C, D..... etc.

    I'm actually really tempted to get a Rem Model 8 and try some BP and cast lead loads to see how it goes now.
     

    toppkatt

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 22, 2017
    1,185
    Not very practical, but the Gatling was brought out in the late 1850's early 1860's. Maryland considers them semi auto. Problem, even the cheap ones are several thousand $$$ and HEAVY (truly not a concealed carry option), but on the bright side they can be had in 45LC, .45-70 and several other black powder cartridges in addition to 9mm parabellum. Also when first introduced they used the then current paper rifle cartridges loaded into a 'chamber' and a musket cap on the back.
    Sorry no flintlocks...
    AFA the Remington model 8 or 81 goes, they might work for a few shots but for the most part semi-autos need smokeless. Those left over gases & particulates from burning black powder will eventually foul up the action even in a long recoil mechanism. Also those corrosive elements will seep into the barrel shroud and destroy the spring inside. (EVER shot black powder out of an Auto 5 (original version) Savage 720 or Remington Model 11 ?) Similar mechanism of action (long recoil) except lacking the barrel shroud surrounding the return spring.
     
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