.45 Target Pistols

Some vintage items of my dad's. He was a big bullseye pistol shooter

That sight apparatus is pretty cool. I've never seen that. Thanks for posting.

Definitely old-school. Too bad it was built on an original 1911 pistol...would have been more valuable today as original. But...back then it was simply a used pistol and cheap government surplus.

Another one

This one has a bit of a story, he had a buddy that used to make his loads hot for practice and ended up cracking the slide. He welded it and when my dad bought the gun from him, he gave my dad a new slide to put on, but it shot so well, my dad never replaced it.

Super cool retro setup

tomcat7 said:

Some vintage items of my dad's. He was a big bullseye pistol shooter

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The set-up looks familiar. I have a pre Gold Cup National Match Colt that was worked on by an old bullseye gunsmith named Austin Behlert. He followed the circuit in a VW van when he wasn’t working out of his shop in N.J.

A Bulls-Eye gun like that should only use 185-grain wadcutters. No wonder the slide cracked with hot loads. If that's the original GI slide they were a bit on the soft side...they weren't fully hardened until WWII. They originally were hardened in certain high-stress areas only.

I have to admit I'd be reluctant to shoot that welded slide, not the cleanest job

It's hard to tell but I don't think the cracked slide is a GI slide, it looks like a post-war with the Colt address on the right side.

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:

A Bulls-Eye gun like that should only use 185-grain wadcutters. No wonder the slide cracked with hot loads. If that's the original GI slide they were a bit on the soft side...they weren't fully hardened until WWII. They originally were hardened in certain high-stress areas only.

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Mine has lightening cuts in the slide to reduce weight and the weight was added under the muzzle for balance. The cuts definitely weaken the slide. I sometimes have a problem finding 185 grain wadcutters, so I don’t shoot it that often. It has held up well for a firearm made in 1960.

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:

A Bulls-Eye gun like that should only use 185-grain wadcutters. No wonder the slide cracked with hot loads. If that's the original GI slide they were a bit on the soft side...they weren't fully hardened until WWII. They originally were hardened in certain high-stress areas only.

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How do you feel about std 230 gr factory ammo, hardball, in old colt 1911s, say an early 1913 and a 1918. I stopped shooting the 1918 25 yrs agomand the 1913 is a recent buy and i have not shot it. Was afraid the sight might fall off or something else bad might happen.

It was designed around the 230 grain ball ammo...should be no issue at all. The thing with a Bullseye pistol is they usually have a lighter recoil spring for use with target wadcutters...14 lb. spring is appropriate. With a lightened slide it's more critical to use such a recoil spring. For standard 230 ball ammo a standard 16 lb. recoil spring is appropriate.

If something bad happens to your pistol when shooting it it's because of some issue related to its over 100 year age and wear or possibly "Modifications by Bubba". I know a guy who has an original 1911 (not an A1) that was blued by someone over the years...and he found out the thumb safety didn't work...the hammer would drop and the gun could have shot a round. On such old stuff with an unknown history you really need to check it all out that it works properly before actually chambering a round.

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:

For standard 230 ball ammo a standard 116 lb. recoil spring is appropriate.

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I think that's kind of heavy, even for 45 ACP

jimbobborg said:

I think that's kind of heavy, even for 45 ACP

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Sorry...my eyes saw what I wanted them to see. Corrected now.

I shot Dad’s 1918 in bullseye competition using a 200 grain midrange swc. When I used it for 230 grain ball I removed the softball recoil spring and installed the standard weight 16 pound spring. Never had an issue with it - the slide was standard weight and was not lightened.

Magnumite said:

I shot Dad’s 1918 in bullseye competition using a 200 grain midrange swc. When I used it for 230 grain ball I removed the softball recoil spring and installed the standard weight 16 pound spring. Never had an issue with it - the slide was standard weight and was not lightened.

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I have multiple Bullseye 1911’s and one is tuned specifically for “only” 200g semi-wadcutters. My first (Gold Cup I also still have) was customized to me with two recoil springs: one for 185grs (pushed by a specific grain charge of Bullseye) and the second spring for the milsurp 230gr roundball issued at each DCM Leg Match.

Good times, great memories. Austin Behlert is quite deservedly A LEGEND!

I use Behlert’s hammer mod for light loads. Using that, spring tuning and a couple other techniques I got a Ceiner conversion to run reliably on CCI Standard Velocity ammo.

45acp target guns also come in the revolver variety. Here's a S&W model 1950 (pre-26).

Reptile said:

The set-up looks familiar. I have a pre Gold Cup National Match Colt that was worked on by an old bullseye gunsmith named Austin Behlert. He followed the circuit in a VW van when he wasn’t working out of his shop in N.J.

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I had dealings with "Butcher" Behlert. I was at the National Matches (when I could still see the sights to shoot 50 yards) and the Firing Pin Stop to my 1911 cracked. I went t the vendor's area and got one from him. I ended up at the USMC armorer's trailer and the Gunnery Sergeant took one look at the part and told the Corporal in there to hold down the fort and that we would be back. He put on his Campaign Hat just so and we went back to Behlert's booth. The G/Sgt proceeded to rip him and his part up one side and down the other, never using any foul language. He threw the part on his desk and said that the part was so out of spec it might make an earring but that was it. I attended the Harrisburg Hunters and Anglers match later that year and there he was. He might have had some skill at one time, but I lost all respect for him.

Ironnewt said:

I had dealings with "Butcher" Behlert

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“I wasn’t there” when Austin tried to help you out but, I spent enough time at Camp Perry to know about the “love-hate” relationship that existed between the various military marksmanship armorer units and the civilian artisans ... sufficient in fact to know enough to not be presumptuous enough to get in between the two ...

For any reading this thread, take another look at some of the photos posted; and KNOW THIS: a great percentage of any of the Gunnies in any of the armorer unit vans would like to “take to task” the Behlerts, the Clarks, the Wilsons, the Les Baers, Mike Longs, the list goes on and on.

And yet, like so many of his time, Behlert was capable of crafting military 1911’s that started out as combat weapons sometimes holding as little as 4-5” moa - AT LESS THAN 50 yards! - into sub-moa tack drivers.

Meanwhile, many of those armorer van supervisors were in their positions for as little as four years! The pressure to win from above was enough to ensure the “This is the way we’ve always done it; this is the way we were told to do it; this is the only way we know how to do it“ mentality.

Guess what? A LOT OF PARTS IN MANY sub-moa 1991 “wad” guns are no longer “within spec” once they reach the mechanical tolerances capable of putting AMMUNITION (THAT IS ALSO WAY THE FVCK “out of spec” in the military’s eye, btw!) through near the same hole, at 50 yards, out of a 5” bbl.

And I am not the fvck done yet, by a country mile. Meanwhile, the armorers vans had the full backing of the fvcking US Govt’s inventory and budget. I remember guys like Behlert living like transient crop pickers in order to stay in business. And, eating franks and beans at 2 and 3am in order to stay up and work on Commercial Row through the night to help shooters out at Perry.

Again, “I wasn’t there when Austin” “butchered” your gun (cough) but, in my experience, anecdotes like this are way off WHEN ONE CONSIDERS THE TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES IN PLAY ...

Thank heavens for - and try to avoid slandering - the civilian pistol smiths of yesteryear who were willing to take parts, “out of spec!”