MSP give wrong Father-to-Son gift instructions? - Frederick Barracks

MikeTF · Aug 21, 2009

I'm giving my son a C&R handgun. He's over 21 and meets all of the requirements to own one. I asked him to stop by the Maryland State Police barracks in Frederick to pick up an 'application to purchase or transfer a regulated firearm'.

He stops by the barracks and decides to ask a MSP officer what he needs to do to receive a handgun from me as a gift. They tell him that we both need to come in and to also bring the gun with us. I told my son that the officer is mistaken.

I can only hope that my son wasn't clear that this was a gift from a father to his son, when he talked with the officer. I think he was, but I wasn't there. Here's the code I'm following:

§ 5-136. Straw purchases.

(a) Scope of section.-

(1) This section does not apply to a person who purchases a regulated firearm as a gift if:

(i) the regulated firearm is a gift to a resident of the State; and

(ii) 1. both the purchaser and recipient of the gift comply with the requirements of this subtitle that relate to the possession, sale, rental, receipt, transfer, or purchase of a regulated firearm; or

2. if the gift is in the form of a gift certificate, only the recipient of the gift need comply with the requirements of this subtitle that relate to the possession, sale, rental, receipt, transfer, or purchase of a regulated firearm.

(2) If the regulated firearm is a gift to the purchaser's spouse, parent, grandparent, grandchild, sibling, or child, the recipient shall:

(i) complete an application to purchase or transfer a regulated firearm; and

(ii) forward the application to the Secretary within 5 days after receipt of the regulated firearm.

(3) The Secretary shall waive the $10 application fee required under § 5-118(a) (2) of this subtitle for a gift purchased in accordance with this subsection.

(b) Prohibited.- A person may not knowingly or willfully participate in a straw purchase of a regulated firearm.

E.Shell · Aug 21, 2009

You both have to go and fill out the paperwork there at the barracks. Regardless of how we interpret the law, they do not normally give you the paperwork to take home and fill out.

Leave the firearms legally secured in the vehicle (unloaded, cased and separate from any ammunition), go in and tell them what you want to do. Do NOT take a firearm into the barracks.

They'll check your ID to make sure it's you, and run it for wants & warrants while you wait. There is the Form 77R, the Citizenship Certification and the Privacy waiver to give investigators permission to look into your son's mental health history.

The trooper will follow you out to the car to verify that the S/N and model description you've entered match the firearm. This activity is borderline insane, since you take the firearm with you and if you want to switch and transfer something illegally, it could have been been done at any time, with or without paperwork. I think it's just an opportunity to see if they can catch you doing anything illegal, like not transporting the firearm as per regs, but maybe he's just making sure you didn't make a mistake on the numbers, although you don't need a trooper to look at a regulated firearm when you go to the dealer...

You'll wait until the 8th day, when it is then legal to transfer the firearm whether the paperwork is back or not. When/if the paperwork comes back, simply sign off on it and return the copies they want and you're done.

IOW, all this tracks through just like you were transferring to/from a stranger, but they waive the $10 fee, because it is a qualified gift.

Kim79 · Sep 7, 2009

So this works with spouses? Is there only select barricks that do it?

GunAddict · Sep 7, 2009

So if my father wanted to legally transfer over his 357 revolver to me all we have to do is fill out the paperwork at the barracks like usual?

coinboy · Sep 7, 2009

Far as I am concerned, all you have to do is fill out the paperwork, transfer the gun, and forward the paperwork to the MSP per LAW. I'm not lawyer though.

On a side note, my father and I also did a gift transfer and they told us that we were supposed to do what E.Shell said but that is not Law.

... · Sep 7, 2009

can you give the transfer the reg firearm to your best friend without the fee? Just say he's a half-brother? and for that matter what about step fathers, half sisters, sisters that are acquired in the family Brady bunch style?

coinboy · Sep 7, 2009

... said:
can you give the transfer the reg firearm to your best friend without the fee? Just say he's a half-brother? and for that matter what about step fathers, half sisters, sisters that are acquired in the family Brady bunch style?

Nope. I would say the law is very clear on this issue:
"If the regulated firearm is a gift to the purchaser's spouse, parent, grandparent, grandchild, sibling, or child,..."
Once again though, I'm no laywer.

novus collectus · Sep 7, 2009

I agree it is not the law, even if they did make you go to the MSP barracks to fill out the form, you do not have to wait seven days and you can just do the transfer right there between father and son. If you can get a form (from a friendly dealer for instance), then if your son filled it out and sent it in within five days as per the law says, there is not a damn thing they can do about it because you broke no law. I am not a lawyer, but I would love to see them try to come after me if I gave a gift to a family member because the law is clear and unambiguous.
I wonder if anyone has pointed out the disparity between the written law and the State Police's made up regulation. This is the REAL regulation in COMAR:

29 Department of State Police

29.03.01.24

F. If the regulated firearm is a gift to a spouse, parent, grandparent, grandchild, brother, sister, son, or daughter:

(1) An application to purchase or transfer a regulated firearm shall be completed by the recipient and forwarded to the Secretary within 5 days of receipt of the regulated firearm; and

(2) The $10 application fee is waived by the Secretary.

http://www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/title_search/Title_List.aspx
Next time state the specific regulation for them to look up and then see if they try to go against their own written regulation.

novus collectus · Sep 7, 2009

coinboy said:
Nope. I would say the law is very clear on this issue:
"If the regulated firearm is a gift to the purchaser's spouse, parent, grandparent, grandchild, sibling, or child,..."
Once again though, I'm no laywer.

Half brothers are siblings.
Step fathers, step sisters is possibly questionable, but if someone is the legal guardian of both step brother and step sister when they were juveniles, then it would be more likely to be able to consider them as siblings.
.....but then if we look at incest laws since one cannot sleep with (vaginal sex) a step daughter or step son, then one can argue it does not matter if one adopted the step child or became their legal guardian because it is still illegal in MD for them to do so. So by extension it would be possible to assume that a step brother or sister are considered siblings IMHO.

... · Sep 7, 2009

novus collectus said:
Half brothers are siblings.
Step fathers, step sisters is possibly questionable, but if someone is the legal guardian of both step brother and step sister when they were juveniles, then it would be more likely to be able to consider them as siblings.
.....but then if we look at incest laws since one cannot sleep with (vaginal sex) a step daughter or step son, then one can argue it does not matter if one adopted the step child or became their legal guardian because it is still illegal in MD for them to do so. So by extension it would be possible to assume that a step brother or sister are considered siblings IMHO.

yeah thats all good, but since evolution is true and we have a common ancestor, then we are all related!!!
No one has to pay the $10 !!!!

hole punch · Sep 8, 2009

... said:
yeah thats all good, but since evolution is true and we have a common ancestor, then we are all related!!!
No one has to pay the $10 !!!!

woohhoo! that's great for gun owners.. but kinda sux if you've got a partner...

ewarfare · Sep 13, 2009

Would transfer from father to son and all applicable paperwork apply to firearms that weren't purchased in the state of MD? Let's say the firearm was purchased in CA, but never registered in MD "voluntarily."

It would seem a person would be forced to register the firearm in MD in order to carry out the family transfer...legally, at least.

zoostation · Sep 13, 2009

... said:
yeah thats all good, but since evolution is true and we have a common ancestor, then we are all related!!!
No one has to pay the $10 !!!!

Good thinking!!!

:thumbsup:

novus collectus · Sep 13, 2009

ewarfare said:
Would transfer from father to son and all applicable paperwork apply to firearms that weren't purchased in the state of MD? Let's say the firearm was purchased in CA, but never registered in MD "voluntarily."

Yes, any transfer of a regulated firearm within the state has to go through the MDSP or they must be notified.

It would seem a person would be forced to register the firearm in MD in order to carry out the family transfer...legally, at least.

It is not registration, but I agree it is wrong regardless.

boothdoc · Sep 13, 2009

does the father have a C&RFFL03? if so then he can just do the paperwork himself. Right?

novus collectus · Sep 13, 2009

boothdoc said:
does the father have a C&RFFL03? if so then he can just do the paperwork himself. Right?

The general consensus is, and as claimed in a letter from the AG's office and as what the MDSP will tell you when you call them, regulated firearms transfers occurring in MD that are not one of the exemptions (such as police officers with duty weapons, dealers/manufacturer/importer FFLs) must involve the MDSP or they must be notified. This includes regulated C&R purchases by C&R FFLs when purchasing or transferring within the state.
So in other words, the general consensus is when a C&R is importing a C&R regulated from out of state, they are not covered under the state law, but when the source or the transferor is in MD the C&R is getting from, it is subject to MD law and the persons must invlove the MDSP.

smokedog · Sep 14, 2009

Disposition of curio and relics by licensed collectors are not subjet to the requirements of the brady law.
If the buyer is know to be of legal age and allowed ownership of firearm then run it thru your bound book and document his information as you normally would.

WeaponsCollector · Sep 15, 2009

The only paperwork that should be needed when giving a gun to your son as a gift should be the wrapping paper.
Gun registration has no place in America.
This is my opinion and is not intended as legal advice.
I do not condone breaking laws but I will speak out against bad ones.

smokedog · Sep 15, 2009

WeaponsCollector said:
The only paperwork that should be needed when giving a gun to your son as a gift should be the wrapping paper.

I agree 100%

Ethan83 · Dec 28, 2011

Zombie thread!

So the law says the 77R has to be forwarded to "The Secretary". Would I be correct that that is:

Col. Marcus L. Brown, Secretary of State Police (410) 486-3101
1201 Reisterstown Road, Pikesville, MD 21208 - 3899

Just wanna make sure. Oh, to oblige those that want pics, I don't have one of mine but here's a stock photo:

MSP give wrong Father-to-Son gift instructions? - Frederick Barracks

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