Torx screws for scope bases

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  • My Toy

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 31, 2008
    1,194
    Westminster
    Do you use thread locker (low strength) when mounting scope bases with torx screws? Years ago when you purchased a scope base it came with slot head screws for mounting and I always would use thread locker. If I’m not mistaken when torch screws appeared on the scene it was advised to actually lubricate the screws because you could apply greater torque and therefore tighten the screw beyond that of slot head screws. To confess I still used thread locker which also acted as a lubricant. Also most used firearms I purchased and removed the scope bases they also had thread locker applied to their torx screws. Lately I’ve had a change of mind about using thread locker on torx screws for mounting scope bases. What do you do?
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    threadlocker-no,
    lap 1 peice bases, clean threads and torque to spec-yes.

    If they aren't torqued properly you can damage the scope or it can come loose, doesn't take much under or over tightening to cause issues. haven't had any that were properly installed come loose with good rings/mounts. If it did after being properly torqued, might suspect a problem with the mount, especially if it was cheap, but if it checked out wouldn't be opposed to using a little blue loc-tite on the ring threads, but only after it came loose after proper installation.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,243
    Mid-Merlind
    I have heard of lapping scope rings but how do you lap a scope base?
    The base contact area is lapped to provide better contact with the rifle surface. This prevents/reduces distortion/twisting of the base when the screws are tightened.

    An alternate to this is to epoxy-bed the base.
    i use blue lock tite on all my screws no matter where they are located on the gun.
    Which creates a helluva mess for no actual gain.

    LocTite on scope mount screws is a leftover practice from the olde days of slotted-head screws, when we could not apply enough torque to keep the screws tight without breaking the head. At that time in our ancient history, LocTite was indeed necessary and widely recommended. About half of my gunsmithing course in the 70s was oriented toward both properly tightening these fragile screws, and then getting them out when they were broken. Ugh, quite primitive.

    Then, late in the previous century, scope mount screws went to Allen-head fasteners, which allowed the screws to be tightened to greater torque values, but the heads were often prone to getting rounded out, especially by the cheap Allen wrenches provided with these damn newfangled screws. This "new" head design helped to keep the screws tight, but LocTite was still recommended and advisable. That WAS because we still could not fully torque these screws to the values allowed by the thread pitch and diameter.

    Then, in this current era, scope mount screws were changed again, and went to Torx heads. This was a GREAT advancement for mankind, allowing us to tighten the screws to full torque values, and beyond. Ever since that monumental day, LocTite has not been needed to keep screws in place. Miraculously, when applied to correctly fitted parts and fully torqued, clean screws do not loosen and LocTite became unnecessary.

    These days, LocTite is just a big mess that isn't needed for modern scope mount fasteners. If you are assembling scope mounts with slotted heads or Allen heads, by all means, slop it up with LocTite and let the next guy figure out how to get it apart without damaging stuff. If you are assembling with Torx head fasteners and using LocTite, you are making TWO easy jobs hard.
     

    Doobie

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 23, 2013
    1,777
    Earth
    I had a rifle that, even when the torx head screws were torqued to specs with a FAT torque wrench, they still worked loose. The really strange part was that it was on a rifle that always sat in the safe and the screws were loose when I pulled it out to go to the range. The only thing I could come up with as to why the screws worked loose was from vibration in my floor from my kids constantly running around and the vibration of from my old dehumidifier. There was no other explanation because after the scope was mounted and torqued, the rifle was sighted in, screws re checked, and it was stored in the safe for several years in the back where it was never touched or moved again.
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,665
    Not Far Enough from the City
    I'm not entirely sure if the majority of scope mounting problems were/are a fastener issue, or were/are a Loctite yes or no issue. Yes, today's Torx fasteners do indeed beat the living hell out of Allen/Hex, and are no doubt a whole other world above slotted. Gotta wonder though, without the use of a torque screwdriver by many and I think still nowadays most regardless of fastener type, how many people then (and now) had or have ANY IDEA WHATSOEVER just how much torque they had applied to fasteners?

    They still provide the damned keys. "Use the short end" of the provided key to tighten, is some of what you'll hear. No, "use the long end", say others. "Just bump it a scooch", but be sure you don't "crank on it like a gorilla."

    To me at least, more fasteners became loose yesterday, and are still broken today, because most folks have no idea whatsoever just how much torque was or is being applied.

    Bottom line? There's no real way to better manage, what you aren't at all measuring.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    I have heard of lapping scope rings but how do you lap a scope base?

    I'll lap 1 peice bases with abrasive film between the base/receiver, epoxy bed them as E. Shell posted about, then torque without lok-tite. But I was busy at work, took it as 1 peice mounts, not bases. I lap them like rings, except for some like Larue that self-align a little, and don't have machine marks.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,243
    Mid-Merlind
    I had a rifle that, even when the torx head screws were torqued to specs with a FAT torque wrench, they still worked loose. The really strange part was that it was on a rifle that always sat in the safe and the screws were loose when I pulled it out to go to the range. The only thing I could come up with as to why the screws worked loose was from vibration in my floor from my kids constantly running around and the vibration of from my old dehumidifier. There was no other explanation because after the scope was mounted and torqued, the rifle was sighted in, screws re checked, and it was stored in the safe for several years in the back where it was never touched or moved again.
    Let me guess:
    Savage with a factory rail mount?
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Using the cheaper scope bases/rings and some of the cheaper red dot mounts I have DEFINITELY had to use blue locktite I have used a FAT wrench since 2012 and set everything to 20 oz in. I purchased a 2nd one for the Vehicle so I'd have it with me at the range if I needed it.
    I have never researched if different torque was required for different mounts though, maybe someone can chime on that.

    I had a 4x scope base on my Crossbow that I did NOT loctite and it came loose on a hunt. I know I used the fat wrench on it though at the beginning of the season to check it. This crossbow experienced a lot of temperature cycling over the season which was long for me (a good thing). Room temp to below freezing back to room temperature. I don't expect Barnett Crossbows use high end metal in their mounts and fasteners. I loctited it when I re tightend it.
    I'll continue to use loctite for sure on especially my hunting optics.


    I've had my best luck NOT gobbing the loctite on but shaking the tube then putting a drop on the screw before hand, letting it sit a minute, then installing. I used to fly RC helicopters where a loose screw would be potentially catastrophic. So would getting loctite on plastic (which it can deteriorate). Drop & wait method is what most of us used.

    I may have a spectrum of both mid grade hardware as well as I know a bunch of Cheap stuff so that may affect my experiences.

    I'm personally going with belts and suspenders here :) seeing as my belt fell down in a hunt this January.

    Your going to get lots of opinions from different angles here. Good luck!
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,665
    Not Far Enough from the City
    Using the cheaper scope bases/rings and some of the cheaper red dot mounts I have DEFINITELY had to use blue locktite I have used a FAT wrench since 2012 and set everything to 20 oz in. I purchased a 2nd one for the Vehicle so I'd have it with me at the range if I needed it.
    I have never researched if different torque was required for different mounts though, maybe someone can chime on that.

    I had a 4x scope base on my Crossbow that I did NOT loctite and it came loose on a hunt. I know I used the fat wrench on it though at the beginning of the season to check it. This crossbow experienced a lot of temperature cycling over the season which was long for me (a good thing). Room temp to below freezing back to room temperature. I don't expect Barnett Crossbows use high end metal in their mounts and fasteners. I loctited it when I re tightend it.
    I'll continue to use loctite for sure on especially my hunting optics.


    I've had my best luck NOT gobbing the loctite on but shaking the tube then putting a drop on the screw before hand, letting it sit a minute, then installing. I used to fly RC helicopters where a loose screw would be potentially catastrophic. So would getting loctite on plastic (which it can deteriorate). Drop & wait method is what most of us used.

    I may have a spectrum of both mid grade hardware as well as I know a bunch of Cheap stuff so that may affect my experiences.

    I'm personally going with belts and suspenders here :) seeing as my belt fell down in a hunt this January.

    Your going to get lots of opinions from different angles here. Good luck!

    Yes Melnic, different specs. They can vary by manufacturer and fastener size, strength, thread count and type.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,243
    Mid-Merlind
    Using the cheaper scope bases/rings and some of the cheaper red dot mounts I have DEFINITELY had to use blue locktite I have used a FAT wrench since 2012 and set everything to 20 oz in. I purchased a 2nd one for the Vehicle so I'd have it with me at the range if I needed it.
    I have proved this multiple times to students who use the FAT wrench (and other 'clicker=style' wrenches):
    If you just follow directions, you are NOT getting full torque.

    Even assuming their torque setting is actually calibrated (did you get a calibration certificate with it?), the reason you are not getting full torque with your 'clicker-style' torque wrenches is that they 'click over' the split-second that the torque setting is met, but the screw continues to stretch.

    If you go behind your clicker with a real torque wrench, you will clearly see this issue. I have seen time and again that a FAT wrench says it was torqued to 15 inch-pounds and the actual value was closer to 10-12 inch-pounds. No wonder they go loose...

    Torque/pressure has to be maintained through the stretch, which the clicker-style FAT wrench does not do. With a good deflection-style torque wrench, you can watch as the desired torque value is met, then, you can hold constant position and watch the torque value drop off as the screw stretches.

    I don't like spending extra money on stuff, but cheap tools are cheap for a reason.

    Prove it to yourself: If one must use a clicker torque wrench, the screws should be revisited several times to allow for stretch vs click. I'll bet that, for the first three or four re-visits, you'll get a few degrees of extra turn every time you come back to that screw. That 'extra turn' is getting up to the required torque value that you did NOT get the first few times.

    I have and use a Seekonk like this to achieve accurate torque settings:
    https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...h-pound-variable-torque-wrench-prod18221.aspx

    I have never researched if different torque was required for different mounts though, maybe someone can chime on that.
    There can be, if components differ in size or material.

    Screw torque specifications are standardized throughout the mechanical industry and are based on several well-defined factors:

    Screw material
    Parent material
    Screw diameter/size
    Screw thread pitch

    Easy examples:

    1) A #6-48 screw will not have the same torque value as a #6-32 (often used with cheap rings).

    2) A #8 screw will not have the same torque value as a #6 screw.

    3) Aluminum screws will not have the same torque value as would similar steel screws.
     

    toppkatt

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 22, 2017
    1,185
    Might also be variation in thread class or quality of matching interior to exterior thread tolerances.
    I have a friend who prefers to use a lathe to chase a thread to using a die because he wants the best fit on his guns.
    I'm not saying it's required but it's his preference at least. Hard to argue on a custom/one off product for your own use as there aren't manufacturing costs and cost of material that need to be passed on to an end user/consumer unlike scope mount screws and bases made for a consumer at a price point.

    E.Shell made a good point above.

    also:

    https://www.brownells.com/guntech/torque-specifications-for-gunsmiths/detail.htm?lid=10816
     

    Bountied

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2012
    6,893
    Pasadena
    I use a dab of blue loc-tite on scope base and ring screws, then torque to spec. When I say dab I use a paper clip, dip it in a drop on a piece of plastic and apply to the 3rd thread from the bottom. I don't put that much thought into it and haven't had anything come loose. When I remove the screws I take a brass brush and some alcohol to clean the threads. I've had used guns with scopes that had so much locktite on them it was a white powder and made a mess when they were removed.

    @E.Shell my Fat wrench came with a cert, I'm sure it needs to be recalibrated though. I've been happy with it. Which in/lb torque wrench do you recommend? I had a fixed torque wrench made by Warne for use with their rings but I could tell after a while it had loosened up. It was not tightening any where close to the preset 25in/lb.
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,665
    Not Far Enough from the City

    Honestly Melnic, unless you can find something in print with Nikon's name on it, I would contact the manufacturer with your specifics.

    Yeah, it can be a hassle, but best to get it right.

    Some product will be aluminum. Some will be steel. Some screws may be size 6. Some others size 8. Coarse and fine threads. Differing lengths. Others may be metric.

    Everybody wants to generalize. Usually, beginning with the word "about". When you hear that word? That's your first clue to beware.

    The manufacturer? The manufacturer is going to know.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,731
    Socialist State of Maryland

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,561
    Harford County, Maryland
    I’ve used torque wrenches and taught use of torque wrenches for my life long career as an auto tech/trainer. My observation has been improper use or improper selection of a torque wrench is the second most common reason for improperly torqued fasteners. Most overpull by pulling too fast/too hard (really bad news with micrometer adjusting, clicker, torque wrenches), not applying the tangent pull on the handle, and improper hand placement amoung other causes. The #1 reason for improper torque is no torque measuring device used. In my shop a torque ‘calibrator’ was used to verify torque wrench settings before each use...especially on real jobs in the stident shop environment. My experience coincides with E.Shell’s experience, light torques are best achieved using a defecting beam or a constant application strain gauge type wrench.

    I use blue loctite on modern mount screws since the head on the fastener doesn’t affect the clamping load. The mating of the parts, material of the fastener and machining of the threads do. I don’t load the threads up too much with loctite. I don’t want to have to relevel a scope in a set of mounts because screws came loose. I don’t have issues with fasteners coming out using the proper locking compound.
     

    Bountied

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2012
    6,893
    Pasadena
    So what's a quality torque wrench for scope mounting? I have the FAT wrench and it has done well. I've never had a screw come loose or had issues with torsion etc. I did over torque a scope ring and damaged the tube. Sent it back to Amazon and got a refund. I'm a bad person.
     

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