MPD now FFL

swamplynx · Apr 22, 2020

Kanly said:
So just heard back from the new email address
Adminbox, GRU (MPD) gru.adminbox@dc.gov
that is now on the registration page.

Anyone hoping that the $125 registration fee would go down are out of luck.

Was just told "It is $125."

Lol

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I'm sure part of that is they want to incentivize using them as the FFL only for handguns, since they seem to be totally underwater (intentionally or not) on paperwork. And of course guns are bad.

Hopefully someone files a lawsuit on the transfer fee as well as the $13 registration fee, amounting to nothing more than a poll tax on an established right.

Beyond the poll tax angle, "(d) The District may charge a fee to recover the cost of acting as a federal firearms licensee pursuant to subsection (a) of this section by charging $125 or its actual costs, whichever is less, for each handgun." They are likely violating their own statute. It seems to me it would be difficult for the District to prove their actual cost to do a transfer is $125. NICS costs nothing, and their own BI can probably be used as a Brady substitute. Their FFL license is $200 for three years. I doubt they are hiring anyone new to be responsible parties on the license and do transfers, so the labor cost argument also falls flat. Even if they were able to make the argument that, for example Lt. Hall and Ofc. Mills are the two responsible parties on the license, if their combined annual labor cost is $300k and they some how spend 20% of their time to transfer 1,000 firearms over the course of a year, that is still just $60/gun.

Fingers crossed we get a good result from SCOTUS on NY Pistol and it ignites a new wave of 2A litigation, including the now held Mance, which would make MPD as an FFL largely irrelevant.

Inigoes · Apr 22, 2020

Is DC MPD operating under Sykes FFL, or has DC went out and got their own FFL license?

Kanly · Apr 22, 2020

So just got more clarification from MPD.

Shockingly the $125 is per transaction so you could do multiple guns for $125 total transfer fee as long as at the same time.

I think Sykes went down to $75 for subsequent guns in same transaction.

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swamplynx · Apr 22, 2020

Kanly said:
So just got more clarification from MPD.

Shockingly the $125 is per transaction so you could do multiple guns for $125 total transfer fee as long as at the same time.

I think Sykes went down to $75 for subsequent guns in same transaction.

That is a twist. If they'll do long guns too, I think I could find 5 on my wish list and do a bulk purchase to make it worth the cost. I wonder if they'll let me use the loading dock.

If they were still turning around registrations in 20 minutes for existing gun owners, the convenience of a single trip to register and get your guns might even be worth the extra cost with as little as 2 guns vs a MD/VA FFL (provided you are only buying long guns and not using MPD is even an option). But I'm guessing with their new "it takes 6 weeks to register" dance, you'd still have to do two trips. With that you might as well support your LGS and have MPD mail your registration card so you only have to make one trip to 300 Indiana.

BlueHeeler · Apr 22, 2020

swamplynx said:
That is a twist. If they'll do long guns too, I think I could find 5 on my wish list and do a bulk purchase to make it worth the cost. I wonder if they'll let me use the loading dock.

If they were still turning around registrations in 20 minutes for existing gun owners, the convenience of a single trip to register and get your guns might even be worth the extra cost with as little as 2 guns vs a MD/VA FFL (provided you are only buying long guns and not using MPD is even an option). But I'm guessing with their new "it takes 6 weeks to register" dance, you'd still have to do two trips. With that you might as well support your LGS and have MPD mail your registration card so you only have to make one trip to 300 Indiana.

I usually try to buy/register in multiples for the reasons you list. :thumbsup:

rascal · Apr 22, 2020

Kanly said:
So just got more clarification from MPD.
Shockingly the $125 is per transaction so you could do multiple guns for $125 total transfer fee as long as at the same time.
I think Sykes went down to $75 for subsequent guns in same transaction.

I am curious,what they will do if anything for the other problem: if, since your wife cant take your gun to the range and visa versa, what they will do if you decided to swap around gun already registered and FFL'd, as I wish to do for for a gun registered in my wife's name that I wish to carry while swapping another to her

BlueHeeler · Apr 23, 2020

Inigoes said:
Is DC MPD operating under Sykes FFL, or has DC went out and got their own FFL license?

DC applied for their own.

https://code.dccouncil.us/dc/council/code/sections/7-2504.10.html

Inigoes · Apr 23, 2020

BlueHeeler said:
DC applied for their own.

https://code.dccouncil.us/dc/council/code/sections/7-2504.10.html

DC is now a gun dealer?!?!

That gives buyers a better defense, for when the DC says people can't have guns anymore. The MPD sold the guns to begin with. lol

Boxcab · Apr 23, 2020

Sounds like Mr. Heller needs to buy a gun and take his good friend Mr. Gura along when he fills out the transfer paperwork.

.

swamplynx · Apr 23, 2020

Boxcab said:
Sounds like Mr. Heller needs to buy a gun and take his good friend Mr. Gura along when he fills out the transfer paperwork.

THIS

jbrown50 · Apr 23, 2020

rascal said:
I am curious,what they will do if anything for the other problem: if, since your wife cant take your gun to the range and visa versa, what they will do if you decided to swap around gun already registered and FFL'd, as I wish to do for for a gun registered in my wife's name that I wish to carry while swapping another to her

I talked to Lt. Hall about that yesterday because I want to register one of my guns to my wife. He says that you can do a dual registration on a gun with your spouse, no FFL transfer needed. You both have to go there and take a copy of proof of marriage such as your marriage certificate.

One other thing is that during this COVID-19 pandemic visits are restricted to appointments only.

Steel Hunter · Apr 23, 2020

Boxcab said:
Sounds like Mr. Heller needs to buy a gun and take his good friend Mr. Gura along when he fills out the transfer paperwork.

That'll probably make it a $2000 transfer fee. :lol2:

rascal · Apr 24, 2020

jbrown50 said:
He says that you can do a dual registration on a gun with your spouse, no FFL transfer needed.

wow. thanks! That is definitely somewhat new, I have a written response from them a couple of years ago when I made a formal inquiry, saying dual registration was completely impossible, except for the existing allowance of rifles and 18-21 year olds.

I guess they figured out they were actually forcing people to keep more guns in the home. That would have been a funny argument, that in practice strong gun control laws were forcing people to buy and keep two guns when they only wanted one!

rascal · Apr 24, 2020

swamplynx said:
I'm sure part of that is they want to incentivize using them as the FFL only for handguns, since they seem to be totally underwater (intentionally or not) on paperwork. And of course guns are bad.

Hopefully someone files a lawsuit on the transfer fee as well as the $13 registration fee, amounting to nothing more than a poll tax on an established right.

Beyond the poll tax angle, "(d) The District may charge a fee to recover the cost of acting as a federal firearms licensee pursuant to subsection (a) of this section by charging $125 or its actual costs, whichever is less, for each handgun." They are likely violating their own statute. It seems to me it would be difficult for the District to prove their actual cost to do a transfer is $125. NICS costs nothing, and their own BI can probably be used as a Brady substitute. Their FFL license is $200 for three years. I doubt they are hiring anyone new to be responsible parties on the license and do transfers, so the labor cost argument also falls flat. Even if they were able to make the argument that, for example Lt. Hall and Ofc. Mills are the two responsible parties on the license, if their combined annual labor cost is $300k and they some how spend 20% of their time to transfer 1,000 firearms over the course of a year, that is still just $60/gun.

Fingers crossed we get a good result from SCOTUS on NY Pistol and it ignites a new wave of 2A litigation, including the now held Mance, which would make MPD as an FFL largely irrelevant.

I added some bolding. I think you are exactly right. It probably would not be too difficult to establish average fee charged for transfers where the FFL is not getting a profit on sale itself, which for sure is in range of $30-$40.

I have a fully qualified DC friend who was interested in buying one of my DC handguns used. It just become silly when a $200 gun has a $125 ffl fee stuck on it.

if you have a DC registered rifle you want to sell to another DC resident I believe you you can FFL transfer in Maryland or Virginia for $35 or so. it seems very hard to establish that it should cost more if FFL in DC ding same exact task.

swamplynx · Apr 24, 2020

rascal said:
I have a fully qualified DC friend who was interested in buying one of my DC handguns used. It just become silly when a $200 gun has a $125 ffl fee stuck on it.

Person to person transfers within the District are now an interesting case now that MPD is a "licensed dealer" per DC's definition (not to be confused with an FFL). Since the transfer is intrastate, a FFL, Federal interstate transfer laws and a 4473 don't even come into play, and we are only looking at DC law...

DC Code § 7–2505.02 states "a) Any person or organization eligible to register a firearm may sell or otherwise transfer ammunition or any firearm, except those which are unregisterable under § 7-2502.02, to a licensed dealer." FFL does not equal "licensed dealer," and DC has their own definition of what a "licensed dealer" is in § 7–2504. Prior to MPD becoming an FFL, Sykes was the only "licensed dealer" in DC, so even intrastate transfers had to go through him. That law is a little silly (not surprising), because it could in a way be read that a DC resident transferring a firearm to an out-of-state FFL is committing a crime, since the out-of-state FFL wouldn't be a DC licensed dealer (I don't sell guns or land, so no experience with transferring anything out). Though perhaps not, because the transfer would be happening outside the District.

All that aside; now MPD is not only an FFL, but also a DC licensed dealer... Which means MPD can now legally transfer your firearm. Being intrastate, MPD is not “acting as a federal firearms licensee” and the transfer should not be subject to their $125 FFL fee. High hopes for reason and logic.

rascal · Apr 25, 2020

swamplynx said:
Person to person transfers within the District are now an interesting case now that MPD is a "licensed dealer" per DC's definition (not to be confused with an FFL). Since the transfer is intrastate, a FFL, Federal interstate transfer laws and a 4473 don't even come into play, and we are only looking at DC law...

DC Code § 7–2505.02 states "a) Any person or organization eligible to register a firearm may sell or otherwise transfer ammunition or any firearm, except those which are unregisterable under § 7-2502.02, to a licensed dealer." FFL does not equal "licensed dealer," and DC has their own definition of what a "licensed dealer" is in § 7–2504. Prior to MPD becoming an FFL, Sykes was the only "licensed dealer" in DC, so even intrastate transfers had to go through him. That law is a little silly (not surprising), because it could in a way be read that a DC resident transferring a firearm to an out-of-state FFL is committing a crime, since the out-of-state FFL wouldn't be a DC licensed dealer (I don't sell guns or land, so no experience with transferring anything out). Though perhaps not, because the transfer would be happening outside the District.

All that aside; now MPD is not only an FFL, but also a DC licensed dealer... Which means MPD can now legally transfer your firearm. Being intrastate, MPD is not “acting as a federal firearms licensee” and the transfer should not be subject to their $125 FFL fee. High hopes for reason and logic.

Very informative, thank you. For intrastate it would be entertaining to ask MPD what their fee is for non FFL, but rather simple dealer, transfer fee was and see the written answer.

As far as interstate I do know MPD told me orally a few years back that I only needed to inform them it was no longer possessed in district, and not even inform them of how it was disposed of, and research and comply with recipient/transferee's state laws, eg in a lot of states at the time: handgun though recipient state FFL and long gun no FFL, to keep from committing a violation in transferee's state.

My four kids are adult or moving into adulthood, and living in DC or Maryland, so I am interested in getting informed on this as possible and watching for changes, as I expect at future date I might need to know best way to avoid high fees and comply with the laws.

AssMan · Apr 25, 2020

So is a DC government sponsored "buyback" now an actual buyback? :shrug:

StantonCree · Apr 25, 2020

snallygaster said:
So is a DC government sponsored "buyback" now an actual buyback?

Havet done a buy back in at least 15 years

swamplynx · Apr 25, 2020

rascal said:
eg in a lot of states at the time: handgun though recipient state FFL and long gun no FFL, to keep from committing a violation in transferee's state.

Interstate transfers ALWAYS have to go through an FFL. Handguns have to be the state of the transferee. Long guns can be any state’s FFL, but still has to go through an FFL.

rascal · May 3, 2020

swamplynx said:
Interstate transfers ALWAYS have to go through an FFL. Handguns have to be the state of the transferee. Long guns can be any state’s FFL, but still has to go through an FFL.

yes I know that, perhaps I worded it ambiguously, what I mean is they told me they wanted to see FFL paperwork for selling pistol, but not for rifle. Also at time I had residency in both DC and VA. I recall that IRS rules for state residency were different than BATFE rules, so you could be a DC resident with a DC registered long gun, but also be a Virginia resident. Don't know if DC contention on what they wanted to see is enforceable while de-registering, or if simply informing them them the firearm is no longer owned is enough.

do all long guns inherited from a decedent in other state need to go through ffl by federal law?

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