Lubrication warning

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  • Matlack

    Scribe
    Dec 15, 2008
    8,555
    I am posting this based on what I have seen elsewhere. Please be careful mixing your own "secret sauce". For reference, grease is just oil that has a thickener. Not all oils react well with one another and not all thickeners react well with different oils. Most oils have some sort of agent to improve this, that or the other thing; IE corrosion or wear for a specific use or material. Those agents can react in ways that you did not intend. #1 rule of thumb, dont mix synthetic with non-synthetic. Your best solution is to determine what the base oil in your grease and thin it out with that. Most importantly, dont mix random greases and oils you have sitting around your garage. It can cause serious issues with corrosion and wear. Based on some of the posts I have seen elsewhere from people mixing random stuff they just happen to have on hand. Please just be careful with what you are mixing and using for lubrication in your firearms and elsewhere.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    I am posting this based on what I have seen elsewhere. Please be careful mixing your own "secret sauce". For reference, grease is just oil that has a thickener. Not all oils react well with one another and not all thickeners react well with different oils. Most oils have some sort of agent to improve this, that or the other thing; IE corrosion or wear for a specific use or material. Those agents can react in ways that you did not intend. #1 rule of thumb, dont mix synthetic with non-synthetic. Your best solution is to determine what the base oil in your grease and thin it out with that. Most importantly, dont mix random greases and oils you have sitting around your garage. It can cause serious issues with corrosion and wear. Based on some of the posts I have seen elsewhere from people mixing random stuff they just happen to have on hand. Please just be careful with what you are mixing and using for lubrication in your firearms and elsewhere.

    Yeah, basically someone at home dicking around isn't the same as a pro in a lab specifically choosing bases and additives. Breakfree LP and call it a day. Red synthetic grease for places that need grease.
     

    Mule

    Just Mule
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2013
    652
    How does that work when you're using one of each? Say. synthetic grease, and a traditional oil.

    Would you see the same sort of issues from the "incidental" inter-mixing of those two substances, as the oil finds its way to a space where grease is used?
     

    Michigander08

    ridiculous and psychotic
    MDS Supporter
    May 29, 2017
    7,685
    How do these active ingredients reacting to each other? You need more than a chemistry/chemical engineering degree to find out. It is industry knowledge and you have to do research because there is nothing out there to lay it all out for you.

    I use gun oil on the inner railing of the frame. There are some spot I use "Tetra Gun 004B1 Gun Grease" because it makes no sense to use oil there; it will migrate and drip.
     

    Johnny5k

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 24, 2020
    1,021
    We have used 3 in 1 oil mixed with graphite for all kinds of applications, including firearms, but I have never used it on aluminum. I probably would have, if I hadnt already learned that graphite and aluminum dont always play nice together. I am still wondering why some certain magazines come with graphite lubricant for the followers, which are aluminum.
     

    Matlack

    Scribe
    Dec 15, 2008
    8,555
    How does that work when you're using one of each? Say. synthetic grease, and a traditional oil.

    Would you see the same sort of issues from the "incidental" inter-mixing of those two substances, as the oil finds its way to a space where grease is used?

    No, I am specifically talking about intentional mixing of grease and oil to make a "special" grease for your firearm. Basically they are unintentionally thinning out the grease so it stays in place but is thinner to allow it to be used in a bottle so you can apply it easily in locations of your choosing. This is something that suddenly became popular. It is a really bad idea to mix two oil based products without knowing if they are compatible. It is supposed to be "cheaper", until you completely F up your firearm. You can easily cause major issues with our equipment doing this. If you dont know what you are doing, just dont do it, even if it sounds simple and great.
     

    Matlack

    Scribe
    Dec 15, 2008
    8,555
    How do these active ingredients reacting to each other? You need more than a chemistry/chemical engineering degree to find out. It is industry knowledge and you have to do research because there is nothing out there to lay it all out for you.

    I use gun oil on the inner railing of the frame. There are some spot I use "Tetra Gun 004B1 Gun Grease" because it makes no sense to use oil there; it will migrate and drip.

    Incidental mixing is generally ok because it will be cleaned, flushed, etc. In this case, it is intentional and being recommended. I am telling everyone here, dont do it because it can cause serious issues. Just oil, grease, and clean as normal. I dont care about what you use, just dont mix it.

    You are correct, that it is a specialized knowledge. I know some, but not enough. But enough to know how to do it and when to ask for help. Very rarely does someone find themselves with a need to change what the manufacturers provides. You can find out the base oil and the thickener, that info is out there. But not the specifics to what is in either, that is closely guarded by the manufacturers. If you have not spoken to the manufacturer about the mixture, dont mix it. If you have and they so go ahead, then by all means go ahead. This is just a public warning for MDS.

    Literally I am seeing people whip this up in blenders entraining air into it causing it to foam and potentially separate out later. Just be careful, that is all I am saying.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,239
    Montgomery County
    When I want to use a grease (to avoid migrating, etc), I like products that ship in a syringe style container so I don't feel the urge to thin it out in order to deploy it via squeeze bottle.
     

    jjones88

    Active Member
    Apr 4, 2013
    568
    Sykesville
    I am posting this based on what I have seen elsewhere. Please be careful mixing your own "secret sauce". For reference, grease is just oil that has a thickener. Not all oils react well with one another and not all thickeners react well with different oils. Most oils have some sort of agent to improve this, that or the other thing; IE corrosion or wear for a specific use or material. Those agents can react in ways that you did not intend. #1 rule of thumb, dont mix synthetic with non-synthetic. Your best solution is to determine what the base oil in your grease and thin it out with that. Most importantly, dont mix random greases and oils you have sitting around your garage. It can cause serious issues with corrosion and wear. Based on some of the posts I have seen elsewhere from people mixing random stuff they just happen to have on hand. Please just be careful with what you are mixing and using for lubrication in your firearms and elsewhere.

    Is there any actual scientific evidence that you've seen that you care to point to? I don't disagree with your statements, but what was said is a pretty huge blanket of stuff wrapped up in a whole lot of nuance. It's not the "mixing of products" that will get you, it's the general ignorance of not knowing what the purpose is and what the materials are and what they are doing, in what environment that will get you.

    Even the experts are wrong all the time: here's some different tests showing how "specialized gun oil" can corrode your stuff or screw it up... Just throwing some oil on something then going out to play in the desert is completely different then throwing some oil on something then going to play in the arctic. Or for the majority of the populace, throwing some oil on it and keeping a gun unfired in a safe for 50 years.


    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/05/26/gun-lubricant-corrosion-tests/

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/07/30/steel-ammo-protectants-vs-texas-month/

    http://www.dayattherange.com/?page_id=3667

    The same argument can be made with gun cleaners and yet Ed's Red is the best there is and its a complete mixture of chemicals found in the garage.

    Best advice is to learn what material your metal is, figure out what environment you plan to use it in, then go look at the scientific community and avoid all things forums and social media related.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    Is this in reference to Chad's Sauce on SOTAR where you take Mobil 1 synthetic grease and mix with 0w-40 until a honey-like consistency is achieved?

     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    Synthetic and conventional base oils can be compatible, although you may end up with performance specs closer to the less expensive base oil a higher cost. Additive packages are usually engineered for a specific purpose, and specific properties. For instance, motor oil has emulsifier additives to absorb moisture. Desireable when you have a gallon of the stuff to trap moisture in an engine, and burn that moisture off every time the engine runs, but bad when a thin coat is expected to protect bare steel from corrosion for months or years. There can be additives that are toxic, that can melt plastic parts, cause electrolytic erosion, and a host of other problems when used for the wrong aplication. Guns are tough, firearm metals and coatings are pretty resilient for less than optimal conditions, and can probably stand up to concoctions that would destroy most any other machine. IMO, just use gun oil, I use CLP for most things, and lightweight Li machine grease if I need it to stay around for a while.
     

    Matlack

    Scribe
    Dec 15, 2008
    8,555
    Is there any actual scientific evidence that you've seen that you care to point to? I don't disagree with your statements, but what was said is a pretty huge blanket of stuff wrapped up in a whole lot of nuance. It's not the "mixing of products" that will get you, it's the general ignorance of not knowing what the purpose is and what the materials are and what they are doing, in what environment that will get you.

    Even the experts are wrong all the time: here's some different tests showing how "specialized gun oil" can corrode your stuff or screw it up... Just throwing some oil on something then going out to play in the desert is completely different then throwing some oil on something then going to play in the arctic. Or for the majority of the populace, throwing some oil on it and keeping a gun unfired in a safe for 50 years.


    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/05/26/gun-lubricant-corrosion-tests/

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/07/30/steel-ammo-protectants-vs-texas-month/

    http://www.dayattherange.com/?page_id=3667

    The same argument can be made with gun cleaners and yet Ed's Red is the best there is and its a complete mixture of chemicals found in the garage.

    Best advice is to learn what material your metal is, figure out what environment you plan to use it in, then go look at the scientific community and avoid all things forums and social media related.

    Yes, all oil manufacturers. Any lubrication or maintenance text book you wish to read. Lots of scientific evidence that you dont mix lubricants unless they are compatible. I deal with the manufacturers constantly on lubricants for machine lubrication. I have performed various tests for wear and corrosion resistance on lubricants for a variety of reasons in multiple industries. You dont mix lubricants unless you know they are compatible. Again, I created this thread as a warning. I dont know the chemistry of them, I am on the mechanical side. All are free to do as they wish.
     

    Matlack

    Scribe
    Dec 15, 2008
    8,555
    Synthetic and conventional base oils can be compatible, although you may end up with performance specs closer to the less expensive base oil a higher cost. Additive packages are usually engineered for a specific purpose, and specific properties. For instance, motor oil has emulsifier additives to absorb moisture. Desireable when you have a gallon of the stuff to trap moisture in an engine, and burn that moisture off every time the engine runs, but bad when a thin coat is expected to protect bare steel from corrosion for months or years. There can be additives that are toxic, that can melt plastic parts, cause electrolytic erosion, and a host of other problems when used for the wrong aplication. Guns are tough, firearm metals and coatings are pretty resilient for less than optimal conditions, and can probably stand up to concoctions that would destroy most any other machine. IMO, just use gun oil, I use CLP for most things, and lightweight Li machine grease if I need it to stay around for a while.

    You are correct, hence the rule of thumb is you dont mix them. The thickeners in the greases can react very poorly to the wrong oils added. There are some conventional oils that are great for flushing equipment of previous oils so as to not introduce water, alcohol, or other degreasers may have negative impacts on the equipment or seals. I am specifically not mentioning things as I dont want to muddy up the thread. The general rule is dont mix stuff unless you know what you are doing.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    You are correct, hence the rule of thumb is you dont mix them. The thickeners in the greases can react very poorly to the wrong oils added. There are some conventional oils that are great for flushing equipment of previous oils so as to not introduce water, alcohol, or other degreasers may have negative impacts on the equipment or seals. I am specifically not mentioning things as I dont want to muddy up the thread. The general rule is dont mix stuff unless you know what you are doing.

    Grease is basically oil mixed with a soap to thicken it(acid+base chemical compound, not "soap" like Irish Spring). Main problem with incompatible grease is the soaps mix together and solidify, while the oil component is free to fling out, or can change the PH enough to cause corrosion. Probably the main risk I think you are hinting at is mixing Lithium and Barium based greases, and yea, not a good idea. No doubt some home brew things like "the dip" for cleaning suppressors would probably cause an OSHA inspector to have an Aneurism, but doesn't always mean they don't work as intended.
     

    jjones88

    Active Member
    Apr 4, 2013
    568
    Sykesville
    Yes, all oil manufacturers. Any lubrication or maintenance text book you wish to read. Lots of scientific evidence that you dont mix lubricants unless they are compatible. I deal with the manufacturers constantly on lubricants for machine lubrication. I have performed various tests for wear and corrosion resistance on lubricants for a variety of reasons in multiple industries. You dont mix lubricants unless you know they are compatible. Again, I created this thread as a warning. I dont know the chemistry of them, I am on the mechanical side. All are free to do as they wish.

    Ah this is what I was poking at. You said something super important. “You don’t understand the chemistry of them”.

    That should be an /end thread right there.

    If you don’t understand the chemistry you shouldn’t mix chemicals period. No matter what the use is, firearms or not. The success of a bad mixing totally depends on the end state mechanical device. Packing bearings versus a direct impingement system are not even remotely the same. The transmission of a car and the rotating of a bolt are similar motions but again slightly different. Drilling a hole or milling a piece of steel is again nothing in comparison.

    Guns are insanely resilient devices. Firearms from the 1700s live today and are perfectly safe to fire and they didn’t have the billion dollar gun industry behind them selling products. Simple water and animal fat boiled down works just fine. Pending the mechanical action and it’s design lots of guns operate with no lubrications just fine and others fall on their face. The folks in the Middle East and Africa aren’t having guns disintegrate because they aren’t buying unicorn tear gun oil.

    The entire success of a lubricate begins and ends with its chemistry. Motor oil is a perfect example of a lubricate that you can use to go to the range and shoot all day. It’s a horrible rust inhibitor. Crisco is an amazing rust inhibitor and an okay lubricate but it’ll burn off at high flash points. It’s all in the chemistry and end use. I wouldn’t use any of these in the machine shop.

    Sorry to pick on you and your thread but you blanket statement posts are extremely bad press for new people coming into this hobby. Doing a google search and seeing this stuff is how “fudd lore” (and I’m not saying this is! Like I said earlier you have to know what your intended use is...) continues to this day.

    As someone said above, the use of basic CLP goes a super long way though if you were to look at its chemistry it’s terrible at all of those long term, and yet guns are covered in it daily and will probably outlive us all.
     

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