HQL Requirement Designed for Future Confiscation

ShafTed said:

I guarantee you that they care not the least little bit about getting money from gun owners. Their one, only, and never-changing concern is to harass, intimidate, and punish all upstanding citizens who would dare to own a gun and thereby sully their liberal utopia.

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If they didn't care about getting money, they wouldn't ask for any. I agree they want to punish as well, but if they didn't want to make that cash it would be free to get the HQL.

BossmanPJ said:

If they didn't care about getting money, they wouldn't ask for any. I agree they want to punish as well, but if they didn't want to make that cash it would be free to get the HQL.

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I wonder if they really actually make any money off of it? There are a lot of government departments that need to check on you and check in to the system. Sure, it may only take a minute or two, but some person(s?) is getting paid a government salary for those couple of minutes. My gut feeling, guided by a healthy prejudice about government waste, tells me this is not a money maker (until the fee hike).

It's not free because that would diminish it as an obstacle.

I'm not trying to argue or defend the state...just pondering out loud...

Art3 said:

I wonder if they really actually make any money off of it? There are a lot of government departments that need to check on you and check in to the system. Sure, it may only take a minute or two, but some person(s?) is getting paid a government salary for those couple of minutes. My gut feeling, guided by a healthy prejudice about government waste, tells me this is not a money maker (until the fee hike).

It's not free because that would diminish it as an obstacle.

I'm not trying to argue or defend the state...just pondering out loud...

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Here's a thought to the conturary. The previous qualification was the web number BS. Someone had to design the website and the software, someone had to perform upkeep on the site. It was all free of charge. The HQL is not. I truthfully believe that if there was not money to be made they would not have asked for it. It is going somewhere. Add to that the sheer number of HQL licenses acquired since 2013.... that's a lot of money..... I guarantee you the state of Maryland did not instruct the MSP to keep all application fees from the HQL from 2013 to eternity.

Rack&Roll said:

Question for GuitarmanNick: Did the lady at MSP tell you that she knew you had a handgun purchase in the 1980s or she told you they had no record of a handgun purchase by you dating back to the 80s?

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She told me that I hadn't purchased a "regulated firearm" since 1985 so she did not process my request. I corrected her and told her that is was actually 1983 and that I recently had a C&R gun delivered to my door and was beginning to build my collection. That is when she asked me for a copy of my C&R license by email and processed it while I was on the phone with her.

Also, I am a veteran with an honorable discharge so a copy of my DD-214 exempts me from the HQL training requirements, too.

GuitarmanNick said:

I recently got my C&R license and submitted a letter the the MSP to become a "Designated Collector".

After not hearing back from the MSP for many weeks, I called and was told my letter had not been processed. The reason was because I hadn't purchased a handgun in Md. since the 1980's. When I told the woman that I was a C&R holder, she asked me to send a copy(there is no mention of this being a requirement), and she processed it that day.

Since I was looking for a 9mm pistol, I recently began looking into the unconstitutional Md. HQL and in order to forego the training requirement, they want a serial number from a handgun I owned prior to the 2013 law or a copy of my DD214.

Now, it occurred to me that they already know that I made a lawful handgun purchase in the 1980's. The serial number is apparently not in their system.

Why would them knowing the serial number now make any difference, unless the entire purpose behind this oppressive law is the eventual confiscation of lawfully owned handguns?

I will stick with C&R handguns and skip buying anything they would know about and my just build the rest of my "modern" firearms! I know it costs more to build a handgun than to buy it, but at least they won't be coming to get it when the confiscation begins!

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If you don't want to give any serial number just take the class. MSAR range charge only 25 dollars for.

Rambler said:

I see your point. I find it hard to believe that they have a record of the prior handgun purchase without the specific details. I remember the previous forms that would come back stamped "NOT DISAPPROVED". They were carbonless copies. Surely they kept a copy and those forms had all of the info on them. What were the forms like prior to that? I honestly do not remember.

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I think they lost all of the paper records when they digitized their system. Probably in boxes in a warehouse somewhere!

44man said:

If I remember correctly one of the dems in the Annapolis hearings a couple years ago stated md has always kept your firearms purchase info and really didn't care who knew

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Right. O'Malley even held a press conference where he said the state had a map of all the guns and owners in the state. There was a picture of it somewhere on this site, several years back.

Obviously, it was just the legal owners. Obviously, it was created for a purpose. Obviously, that purpose was never publicly stated.

That government governs best which governs least. (Thoreau, on civil disobedience, IIRC). Dude would be on the front lines with Rack&Roll, if he hadn't so inconvenienced us all by dying.

Bob A said:

Right. O'Malley even held a press conference where he said the state had a map of all the guns and owners in the state. There was a picture of it somewhere on this site, several years back.

Obviously, it was just the legal owners. Obviously, it was created for a purpose. Obviously, that purpose was never publicly stated.

That government governs best which governs least. (Thoreau, on civil disobedience, IIRC). Dude would be on the front lines with Rack&Roll, if he hadn't so inconvenienced us all by dying.

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I believe you mean the one in this thread
https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=15643

Mike said:

I believe you mean the one in this thread
https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=15643

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The link in that thread doesn't work anymore, did anybody save a screen shot?

Mike said:

I believe you mean the one in this thread
https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=15643

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Yes, thank you for your search. The google-fu is strong with you.

I got ringside seats to an excellent example on why the HQL was created last week. A relative of mine has his first kiddo on the way. He is taking fatherhood as seriously as he knows how, so he has been diligent about his preparations: reaching out to other fathers for advice on everything from delivery to early infant care, registering for birthing and early infant care classes, registering for infant/child/adult CPR, installing a security system, baby proofing, etc. As a result of this, he has begun to reevaluate his stance on firearms ownership. You see, he and his wife are die hard Democrats. His wife in particular regularly uses social media to rant about how it is far too easy to purchase firearms in America, etc. All the usual uninformed talking points, but that one in particular is relevant to the discussion. I have kept my mouth shut out of a desire to maintain peace in the family, and they generally leave me alone in person since they are aware that I am a firearms enthusiast and 2A supporter.

So back to the previous week at the aforementioned family gathering: This relative goes on a rant about how ridiculous Maryland gun laws are. Apparently he decided that as a father, it is important for him to be able to defend his household. He and his wife tried to go purchase a handgun for this purpose, and they quickly discovered that criminals have a much easier time of it in Maryland than law abiding citizens. I offered to help guide them through the HQL process, but they declined, deciding to forgo gun ownership for a baseball bat and some wishful thinking.

Now that I have seen cracks begin to appear in their "Left is right" mentality, I will be making further efforts to expand their worldview. Otherwise the HQL process will succeed in removing 2A rights from another family by making it annoying and "too much work" to own. The eugenics movement was rejected long ago. I see no reason to allow social eugenicists to breed gun ownership out of us.

BossmanPJ said:

I can tell you that the county police knew that I owned a .22 rifle a few years ago. There was an accidental shooting in the area of my parents home and they came looking for me because I bought a 10-22 while living there.

Pretty scary. It was not me that was responsible of course. I hadn't lived there in years.

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MSP/the police do not have any records on non-regulated firearms, and never have.

Someone who knew you has a .22 rifle must have pointed them your way.

Bob A said:

Yes, thank you for your search. The google-fu is strong with you.

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I actually bookmarked the thread because it was so outrageous. Too bad the links in the thread are defunct.

GuitarmanNick said:

...


Since I was looking for a 9mm pistol, I recently began looking into the unconstitutional Md. HQL and in order to forego the training requirement, they want a serial number from a handgun I owned prior to the 2013 law or a copy of my DD214.

Now, it occurred to me that they already know that I made a lawful handgun purchase in the 1980's. The serial number is apparently not in their system.

Why would them knowing the serial number now make any difference, unless the entire purpose behind this oppressive law is the eventual confiscation of lawfully owned handguns?

...

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They are not so efficiently omniscient. You can be sure the serial number is in their system, and will be forever, even if you resold that gun thirty years ago.

The whole thing is about bureaucratic exemptions to specific bureaucratic requirements. To give you the exemption, the bureaucrat needs a number to put into the correct bureaucratic box on the bureaucratic form.

You want a bureaucratic exemption from the HQL Training requirement? Fine. The bureaucratic form offers several ways to get that exemption, but ONE of those boxes has to have SOMETHING entered into it. You yourself said they'd be satisfied with your DD214. If you claim an exemption based on prior ownership of a Regulated Firearm, the bureaucrat just needs a number to plug into the bureaucratic box. That's all.

Yes, they already have that number, but it's in a different database. The bureaucrat is not going to do a special investigation into your prior purchases, nor would you want her to. The number isn't going to enter itself, either.

Just give them the number they already have in a different database and don't worry about it. Your energy is better spent hardening your doors and windows to slow down the Confiscation Team.

Frankly, I think you're overlooking the real insidious clue to future infringement. Instead of worrying about one bureaucrat asking for a number which the bureaucracy already has in a different database, I would ask "Why do they need your address?" Don't they already have your address?

What possible use would they have for your address, unless it's to allow the Confiscation Team to find your house?

Meanwhile, you made a special point of telling the Designated Collector Bureaucrat that you are making a special effort to stockpile "unregistered" handguns. Don't you think that put you on a Special List?

Now instead of the Confiscation Team showing up with a short list of two or three specific serial numbers, they are going to assume you have an unknown number of guns which you are deliberately trying to conceal.

Do you realize a search warrant allows them to keep searching until they are satisfied? Thermal Imaging, Ground Penetrating Radar... they have the legal right to literally bulldoze your house, sift through the rubble, and excavate as deep as they please, looking for all the guns you told them you were deliberately attempting to conceal from them.

I saw a documentary once about a murder investigation in Superior, Wisconsin where they literally disassembled a guy's house, board by board, nail by nail, looking for evidence. They showed the vacant lot on the documentary. I believe it's now a community garden.

I sure hope you rent.

Threeband said:

They are not so efficiently omniscient. You can be sure the serial number is in their system, and will be forever, even if you resold that gun thirty years ago.

The whole thing is about bureaucratic exemptions to specific bureaucratic requirements. To give you the exemption, the bureaucrat needs a number to put into the correct bureaucratic box on the bureaucratic form.

You want a bureaucratic exemption from the HQL Training requirement? Fine. The bureaucratic form offers several ways to get that exemption, but ONE of those boxes has to have SOMETHING entered into it. If you claim an exemption based on prior ownership of a Regulated Firearm, the bureaucrat just needs a number to plug into the bureaucratic box. That's all.

Yes, they already have that number, but it's in a different database. The bureaucrat is not going to do a special investigation into your prior purchases, nor would you want her to. The number isn't going to enter itself, either.

Just give them the number they already have in a different database and don't worry about it. Your energy is better spent hardening your doors and windows to slow down the Confiscation Team.

Frankly, I think you're overlooking the real insidious clue to future infringement. Instead of worrying about one bureaucrat asking for a number which the bureaucracy already has in a different database, I would ask "Why do they need your address?" Don't they already have your address?

What possible use would they have for your address, unless it's to allow the Confiscation Team to find your house?

Meanwhile, you made a special point of telling the Designated Collector Bureaucrat that you are making a special effort to stockpile "unregistered" handguns. Don't you think that put you on a Special List?

Now instead of the Confiscation Team showing up with a short list of two or three specific serial numbers, they are going to assume you have an unknown number of guns which you are deliberately trying to conceal.

Do you realize a search warrant allows them to keep searching until they are satisfied? Thermal Imaging, Ground Penetrating Radar... they have the legal right to literally bulldoze your house, sift through the rubble, and excavate as deep as they please, looking for all the guns you told them you were deliberately attempting to conceal from them.

I saw a documentary once about a murder investigation in Superior, Wisconsin where they literally disassembled a guy's house, board by board, nail by nail, looking for evidence. They showed the vacant lot on the documentary. I believe it's now a community garden.

I sure hope you rent.

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OK, now you are starting to scare me

rseymorejr said:

OK, now you are starting to scare me

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Starting?

Wake up and smell the Soma!

Ever wonder why they need your Date of Birth?

What possible use could they have for your Date of Birth, unless it is to steal your very soul?

A1Uniform said:

MSP/the police do not have any records on non-regulated firearms, and never have.

Someone who knew you has a .22 rifle must have pointed them your way.

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One GOOD reason not to tell only people who you trust implicitly.
and that might not be enough.

GuitarmanNick said:

I think they lost all of the paper records when they digitized their system. Probably in boxes in a warehouse somewhere!

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I think I found it!

JohnnyE said:

The recipe for future confiscation has been in place for years: the Maryland 77r and federal 4473 have all the information they need to confiscate. While the HQL is BS, it does little to help future confiscation.

Hell, I wish every Marylander got an HQL, then Annapolis would think there are millions more gun owners. If you don't have an HQL, you're invisible, and we're an artificially small minority.

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The 4473 records are not supposed to be held, and theoretically should only be for Fed use.

However, I put nothing past Maryland, where it comes to ways to further encumber the peasants.

Mr H said:

The 4473 records are not supposed to be held, and theoretically should only be for Fed use.

However, I put nothing past Maryland, where it comes to ways to further encumber the peasants.

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Since when did something as trivial as the law stop MSP?