HB 638 Untraceable & Undetectable Firearms

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  • lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Looking at the language

    ON OR AFTER JANUARY 1, 2022, A PERSON MAY CONTINUE TO POSSESS
    2 A FIREARM OR AN UNFINISHED FRAME OR RECEIVER THAT THE PERSON
    3 MANUFACTURED OR ASSEMBLED AND LAWFULLY POSSESSED BEFORE JANUARY 1,
    4 2022, IF:
    5 (1) THE FIREARM OR UNFINISHED FRAME OR RECEIVER IS MARKED
    6 WITH A UNIQUE SERIAL NUMBER THAT:
    7 (I) INDICATES:
    8 1. THE MODEL OF THE FIREARM OR UNFINISHED FRAME
    9 OR RECEIVER, IF SUCH DESIGNATION HAS BEEN MADE;
    10 2. THE CALIBER OR GAUGE; AND
    11 3. THE FULL LEGAL NAME AND CITY OF THE PERSON
    12 POSSESSING THE FIREARM OR UNFINISHED FRAME OR RECEIVER.
    13 (II) IS CONSPICUOUSLY AND PERMANENTLY ENGRAVED, CAST,
    14 OR STAMPED ON THE FIREARM FRAME OR RECEIVER OR UNFINISHED FRAME OR
    15 RECEIVER; AND
    16 (III) CONFORMS WITH THE REQUIREMENTS IMPOSED ON
    17 FEDERALLY LICENSED FIREARM MANUFACTURERS AND FEDERALLY LICENSED
    18 FIREARM IMPORTERS UNDER 18 U.S.C. § 923(I); AND
    19 (2) THE PERSON MAINTAINS A RECORD LOG THAT INCLUDES:
    20 (I) ALL UNIQUE SERIAL NUMBERS ENGRAVED, CAST, OR
    21 STAMPED ON THE FIREARM FRAME OR RECEIVER OR UNFINISHED FRAME OR
    22 RECEIVER; AND
    23 (II) THE DATE THE FIREARM FRAME OR RECEIVER OR
    24 UNFINISHED FRAME OR RECEIVER WAS CONSPICUOUSLY AND PERMANENTLY
    25 ENGRAVED, CAST, OR STAMPED.
    26 (B) ON OR AFTER JANUARY 1, 2022, A PERSON MAY NOT TRANSFER THE
    27 OWNERSHIP OF A FIREARM OR UNFINISHED FRAME OR RECEIVER THAT THE PERSON
    28 MANUFACTURED OR ASSEMBLED AND LAWFULLY POSSESSED BEFORE JANUARY 1,
    29 2022, THAT IS MARKED IN ACCORDANCE WITH SUBSECTION (A) OF THIS SECTION,
    30 UNLESS THE TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP IS MADE TO:
    31 (1) ANOTHER FAMILY MEMBER WHO POSSESSES A VALID HANDGUN
    10 HOUSE BILL 638
    1 QUALIFICATION LICENSE ISSUED UNDER § 5–117.1 OF THIS TITLE; OR
    2 (2) A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY.

    So if it was done before January 2022, it does not need to be marked by an FFL.

    5-704 is very similar language, but basically says after January 2022 it must be marked by an FFL and adds some language about how FFLs can only sell or transfer such a gun if it complies with 5-704 for markings, etc.

    Why the caliber? As it is a frame, those markings should be on the BARREL as they almost all can be caliber swapped in seconds. That is taking up extra space and just as likely has no actual bearing on the frame/receiver.

    It doesn't mention state BTW, just city.

    Next where? Because even with 1/16" high lettering (roughly corresponding to the same width)

    I would, for instance, need to add on a Polymer 80 plate

    9x19 XXXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX plus a serial number, I guess I could just use 1

    That is 32 characters at least. There is likely enough room I could do two lines. That is an inch of width per line. I could go double check, but I am reasonably sure I couldn't fit that one to the engraving plaque.

    I really feel better for someone with a really LONG legal name. Or a really long city name.

    Now what happens if the caliber engraved doesn't match the barrel you have in the firearm? Are you going to go to prison if caught with this?

    How the f is Michael Williams-Phillips III who resides in Mountain Lake Park going to label their 10mm auto?

    To add, you'd need to add MD in there also. This bill doesn't say state needs to be in there, but it says you have to conform with the ATF marking requirements that FFLs have to follow, which does require state.

    After January 2022, anything built then could be transferred through an FFL it looks like. I guess because an FFL engraved it (which they CANNOT legally do).

    What a hot F-ing mess of a law.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    BTW out of curiosity I did a quick check.

    First gen PF940, no engraving plate.

    PF940v2, .3" high x 1.1" long

    RL556v3 .2" high x .8" long

    The RL is almost certainly not going to fit the engraving unless you have a short legal name and city of residence (and 5.45x45 is going take up a lot of space!)

    So much bad about this bill.
     

    Kicken Wing

    Snakes and Sparklers
    Apr 5, 2014
    868
    WASH-CO
    So if you move a couple of times, the gun looks like Bart Simpson's blackboard in the opening credits?

    :lol:

    What do you expect will happen if they fix all of those inconsistencies identified in your testimony and say, "We fixed them. How's this?"

    You know the drill.... just give them enough to chew on. Don't give them the whole steak. That is why some of the same stuff keeps popping up year after year. They think they "fixed it" from last year. Keep that trail of breadcrumbs spread out as far as possible. They seem to get lost in the woods easily.

    Why don't we avoid going to Annapolis and voicing our opinion. Simply tell them to do what they want because.it doesn't affect us. And keep doing what we do. Let them get no resistance when making their law. When we participate with them they feel that we are going along and will accept the outcome because we are playing the game.

    Why not stop playing the game?

    That is one way to do it. I know there is controversy on this board in regards to dealing with the gun laws. Right now I look at it like camping during mosquito season. At the very least, I want a net inside of my tent to keep them outside.

    BTW out of curiosity I did a quick check.

    First gen PF940, no engraving plate.

    PF940v2, .3" high x 1.1" long

    RL556v3 .2" high x .8" long

    The RL is almost certainly not going to fit the engraving unless you have a short legal name and city of residence (and 5.45x45 is going take up a lot of space!)

    So much bad about this bill.

    So much bad indeed. There are plenty of things to pick apart here.

    Here's the biggest flaw I see with any bill coming out of Annapolis. If I own 100 pistols that I bought legally, and I built 1 "ghost" gun and get caught, how does that make any sense? I have the stupid HQL and passed 100 background checks, how the hell did this bill protect the public by punishing me???

    It doesn't make any sense. That is not the popular opinion in nap town though.
     

    Kicken Wing

    Snakes and Sparklers
    Apr 5, 2014
    868
    WASH-CO
    So if it was done before January 2022, it does not need to be marked by an FFL.

    5-704 is very similar language, but basically says after January 2022 it must be marked by an FFL and adds some language about how FFLs can only sell or transfer such a gun if it complies with 5-704 for markings, etc.

    It doesn't mention state BTW, just city.

    How the f is Michael Williams-Phillips III who resides in Mountain Lake Park going to label their 10mm auto?

    Re-read your quote. 5-703 says that you can continue to possess a firearm or unfinished frame or reciever that you manufactured before January 1, 2022 IF: the firearm or receiver is marked with a unique serial number that: blah, blah, blah.

    This bill states that you must have your home built (or un-built) receiver engraved.

    You are correct about the information that needs to be engraved. I said "full address" when I should have said "full name and city". Sorry for the confusion.
     
    Here's the biggest flaw I see with any bill coming out of Annapolis. If I own 100 pistols that I bought legally, and I built 1 "ghost" gun and get caught, how does that make any sense? I have the stupid HQL and passed 100 background checks, how the hell did this bill protect the public by punishing me???

    I WILL NOT COMPLY.

    Your first mistake is thinking gun control has anything to do with public safety..it doesn't..
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,948
    Fulton, MD
    Looks like many of us will be criminals after 1/1/22.. because no FFL is going to violate federal law for the state AND because I simply refuse to comply.

    I don't see the requirement that FFL must do the engraving / serial number. Only that the serial number must meet the same requirements.

    Looks like you can assign your own serial number and must keep a log of it.

    I suspect that is why the requirement of name and address and serial number - so that the gun can be traced back to who made it.

    Looks like the maker gets to be the first person contacted if the gun turns up somewhere it shouldn't. That is, the maker must now take on some of the responsibility of a FFL07.

    It can't be transferred to anyone else except family or LEO.

    The part that amuses me is the "unfinished receiver".

    So we have to get out beer cans serialized?
     

    BeoBill

    Crank in the Third Row
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 3, 2013
    27,058
    南馬里蘭州鮑伊
    Here's the biggest flaw I see with any bill coming out of Annapolis. If I own 100 pistols that I bought legally, and I built 1 "ghost" gun and get caught, how does that make any sense? I have the stupid HQL and passed 100 background checks, how the hell did this bill protect the public by punishing me???

    I WILL NOT COMPLY.

    You understand the purpose of bills like this.

    It's not to protect the public from anyone or anything.

    It IS to manufacture as many criminals out of lawful citizens as quickly as possible.

    So the pols can say they "did something" and collect their fat campaign contributions from lobbying entities.

    To quote an OP: "No criminals will be harmed by this legislation."
     

    BeoBill

    Crank in the Third Row
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 3, 2013
    27,058
    南馬里蘭州鮑伊
    Re-read your quote. 5-703 says that you can continue to possess a firearm or unfinished frame or reciever that you manufactured before January 1, 2022 IF: the firearm or receiver is marked with a unique serial number that: blah, blah, blah.

    This bill states that you must have your home built (or un-built) receiver engraved.

    You are correct about the information that needs to be engraved. I said "full address" when I should have said "full name and city". Sorry for the confusion.

    Is it possible to engrave a microdot? :innocent0
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,948
    Fulton, MD
    No, it plainly says just the opposite. You can only keep your pre-01/22 home build if you go through the marked-by-an-FFL process by that date.

    In the posted language upthread, where does it say it must be done by an FFL?

    Am I missing that part?

    I see that the marking must conform to what an FFL must conform to, but not that an FFL must be the one who does it.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,238
    Montgomery County
    I see that the marking must conform to what an FFL must conform to, but not that an FFL must be the one who does it.

    I gathered that the requirement that the markings are recorded in an FFL's record books implied that. If you DON'T get an FFL do it, you'd get to pay the engraver and then also get to pay an FFL to record the information ... which is of course outside of the scope of their license, not to give the MD GA more to work on or anything.
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,948
    Fulton, MD
    I gathered that the requirement that the markings are recorded in an FFL's record books implied that. If you DON'T get an FFL do it, you'd get to pay the engraver and then also get to pay an FFL to record the information ... which is of course outside of the scope of their license, not to give the MD GA more to work on or anything.

    The person maintains a record log.

    Where does it say recorded in an FFL's record?

    I'll re-read again.
     

    DanGuy48

    Ultimate Member
    Here's the biggest flaw I see with any bill coming out of Annapolis. If I own 100 pistols that I bought legally, and I built 1 "ghost" gun and get caught, how does that make any sense? I have the stupid HQL and passed 100 background checks, how the hell did this bill protect the public by punishing me???

    I WILL NOT COMPLY.

    You’re assuming they care about the results of their actions, the consequences. They don’t really. Look at all the examples of failed liberal policy in any segment of your choice. They learn nothing from them and just continue on their merry way. It is ALL about pushing an agenda. If the entire country falls apart while pursuing it, well, that’s the price that has to be paid.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    The person maintains a record log.

    Where does it say recorded in an FFL's record?

    I'll re-read again.

    I think he is reading 5-705. The next section. A lot of the language is the same as 4-705. But it applies to things finished after 1/1/2022.

    AFTER that date it must be engraved by an FFL. But it says excepting things that fall under 4-704, which is the language I posted.

    So basically after 1/1/2022 you can only build a gun if an FFL engraves it (FFL-03 self engraving?). I have to double check the rest of that section’s language. It includes how an FFL can then transfer it and I think it does have an FFL record keeping requirement.

    But again, stuff built before then you can engrave and keep the records. After that, FFL only.

    So pre 1/1/2022 manufactured stuff you engrave. You record keep. Only you may own it or you can transfer it to a family member or law enforcement.

    Manufactured post 1/1/2022 FFL engraves. I think it says FFL record keeps (that I have to double check). FFL can transfer it then.

    I didn’t see if the engraving post 1/1/2022 is still the owner/builders info or the FFL’s info at that point.
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,948
    Fulton, MD
    I think he is reading 5-705. The next section. A lot of the language is the same as 4-705. But it applies to things finished after 1/1/2022.

    AFTER that date it must be engraved by an FFL. But it says excepting things that fall under 4-704, which is the language I posted.

    So basically after 1/1/2022 you can only build a gun if an FFL engraves it (FFL-03 self engraving?). I have to double check the rest of that section’s language. It includes how an FFL can then transfer it and I think it does have an FFL record keeping requirement.

    But again, stuff built before then you can engrave and keep the records. After that, FFL only.

    So pre 1/1/2022 manufactured stuff you engrave. You record keep. Only you may own it or you can transfer it to a family member or law enforcement.

    Manufactured post 1/1/2022 FFL engraves. I think it says FFL record keeps (that I have to double check). FFL can transfer it then.

    I didn’t see if the engraving post 1/1/2022 is still the owner/builders info or the FFL’s info at that point.

    Ok, I was reading that correctly, but missed the next section.

    As noted earlier in the thread, there's several parts of this that are... problematic.
     

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