FMJ AMMO FOR SELF DEFENSE

Boats · Jan 25, 2022

That's neat how the 230gr .45 started the test weighing 230gr and ended it weighing more.

Methinks their test parameters might be suspect.

outrider58 · Jan 25, 2022

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
There's an argument that goes the 9mm needs a HP to be effective...where a .45 is already large and heavy enough. I don't know how accurate the reality is but I would certainly not want to be shot with a .22 Short much less a 9mm, .35, .38 or any other caliber regardless of bullet design.

This kinda brings the discussion back down to earth now, doesn't it?

We are all(mostly) defensive shooters in the event we shoot at someone. These shots, for the most part, will be at danger-close range. I'll take whatever is near me. They are all going into the bad guy's A box.

WatTyler · Jan 25, 2022

It's not the bullet that kills. It's the hole.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Jan 25, 2022

WatTyler said:
It's not the bullet that kills. It's the hole.

Let's air in...let's blood out.

Alea Jacta Est · Jan 25, 2022

Hydrostatic shock. It’s what stops the show.

Leakage. Not just Depends best friend.

camo556 · Jan 25, 2022

Handgun wounds, far more often than not, not fatal. Last I saw, about 80% of people survive. They don't even pass out. They walk around, talk, do all sorts of things when the adrenaline get pumping.

What stops bad guys is the pain of being perforated.

smokey · Jan 25, 2022

Alea Jacta Est said:
Hydrostatic shock. It’s what stops the show.

Leakage. Not just Depends best friend.

Hypovolemic shock...or Hemorrhagic shock if you want to be super specific.

Bullfrog · Jan 25, 2022

Boats said:
That's neat how the 230gr .45 started the test weighing 230gr and ended it weighing more.

Methinks their test parameters might be suspect.

I doubt they pulled the bullets, weighed them, then reassembled the rounds.

The starting weight is most likely taken from the manufacturer's spec and the ending weight is measured.

It probably started and finished as 231gr.

They probably should pull a few and weigh them as a control to see if the starting weight is consistent with the manufacturer's claims.

Doco Overboard · Jan 25, 2022

I dont know if one could reasonably expect a bullet/firearm type that is intended to be used at close enough range that its trajectory becomes unimportant for most intended purposes can be both designed as such to always both reliably expand or stay together well enough to always guarantee deep penetration with expansion qualities while remaining completely effective and reliable in all manner of situations.
For instance in a revolver and some pistols a lot of bullets traditionally in the past have relied on form like with a flat point rather than designing a jacket weak enough that would allow lead to become disrupted because it has slowed to such an extent that lead wont always predictably expand in and of itself because velocity has slowed already enough to affect intended point of impact negatively.

outrider58 · Jan 25, 2022

WatTyler said:
It's not the bullet that kills. It's the hole.

...and where you put it.

Boats · Jan 25, 2022

Bullfrog said:
I doubt they pulled the bullets, weighed them, then reassembled the rounds.

The starting weight is most likely taken from the manufacturer's spec and the ending weight is measured.

It probably started and finished as 231gr.

They probably should pull a few and weigh them as a control to see if the starting weight is consistent with the manufacturer's claims.

Realistically, you're probably right. But this is their scientific test to prove how good their bullets are. accuracy isn't just for shooting.

And having something like that on a proof of concept sheet calls the entirety of their (the manufacturer) results into question. what other corners did they cut? Did they Chrono the rounds or just calculate velocity? Did they do a single shot or multiple?

woodline · Jan 25, 2022

blackdoggactual said:
I follow Mike Glover (former Green Beret & CIA contractor) owner of Fieldcraft Survival and founder of American Contingency. In a recent video he said he loads his concealed carry and home defense pistols with FMJ (full metal jacket) ammunition. I commented on the video saying I was confused about this, but he or no one else responded. If self defense hollow point ammunition is made for self defense, what reason would a subject matter expert have for using FMJ ?

Another question, does anyone have any experience with the new Gen 2 Shield Arms 15 round magazines for the Glock 43X, taking magazine capacity from 10 to 15 rounds.

Thank you..

No comment on the FMJ thing. I’m going to assume this thread is already like 5 pages in response to that. Someone has probably already stated my thoughts on the matter somewhere up thread.

But the shield arms Gen 2 mags are great. They are in the hands of professional users who like them. I have used them a good bit with my issue 43X and like them fine. You are probably going to want a Maglula loader if they make one that fits, because those things can be pretty stiff when you first get them.

Biggfoot44 · Jan 25, 2022

At a minimum , JHP bullets themselves cost more to manufacture . Non- Generic ammo specifically intended for SD or Duty will have some degree of higher QC , plus frequently extras such as sealed primers , sealed bullets , sometimes bonded bullets ($$), nickled cases , etc .

Plus amortization of R&D costs . Plus advertising costs . Plus supply and demand .

The very latest product line is generally the most expensive . Somewhat due to recouping development costs , somewhat due to taking advantage of marketplace demand .

smokey · Jan 25, 2022

Boats said:
Realistically, you're probably right. But this is their scientific test to prove how good their bullets are. accuracy isn't just for shooting.

And having something like that on a proof of concept sheet calls the entirety of their (the manufacturer) results into question. what other corners did they cut? Did they Chrono the rounds or just calculate velocity? Did they do a single shot or multiple?

They weren't able to wash all the gel out of the nooks and crannies, and some burnt powder stuck to them. There's your 1 grain. In reality, it's just like mentioned before. There's slight variance bullet to bullet, but they're labeled as "230 grain". Weighing 231 grains falls into the manufacturers tolerances, and shows that they retained weight. By "retained weight" I mean that they didn't fragment and leave pieces behind in the gel. That is important for handgun ballistics(under 2000fps) because you want the projectile to retain all the mass(and the energy/momentum with it) so that it can be used to expand and penetrate.

HST, Gold dot, DPX, ranger t... they've all got tons and tons of official and independent testing that confirms these results. They're the best at penetrating 12-18" in ballistic gel through a variety of barriers with the best reliable expansion within these penetration depths.

FMJ for defense is silly. It'll poke holes, but they won't be as big and you'll have more overpenetration. There's not real good reasons to use them for 99% of people for defensive distances other than cost. The loads listed above will be reliable in modern guns of good quality. You can typically find a matched pair of defensive loads and training loads for each manufacturer that are very similar in recoil characteristics and external ballistics...or at least similar enough for it to not matter within 50 feet or so.

[Kev308] · Jan 25, 2022

FMJ if you need to shoot thru the couch or if the perp takes cover behind the doorway. Lol

cantstop · Jan 25, 2022

7.62x25 vs Body Armor FTW

Bullfrog · Jan 25, 2022

[Kev308];6546213 said:
FMJ if you need to shoot thru the couch or if the perp takes cover behind the doorway. Lol

Or hides behind a stand holding chips and pretzels in the convenience store... I learned watching TV that is effective cover. The shooter probably should have been using FMJ.

smokey · Jan 25, 2022

Bullfrog said:
Or hides behind a stand holding chips and pretzels in the convenience store... I learned watching TV that is effective cover. The shooter probably should have been using FMJ.

This is why I watch the valuable ballistic science that takes place on demolitionranch. I now know to hide behind the composite decking at Lowes instead of the pressure treated during a shooting.... unless I can find a rack of stretch Armstrong dolls somewhere, then I'm getting behind that.

Biggfoot44 · Jan 26, 2022

Places where FMJ is actually a good idea :

.25acp definitely
.32acp probably
.380acp in subcompact , arguable , but not unreasonable choice

Sucks least for serious caliber :
.45acp. Already large , porportional less severe overpenetration

Reasons why people Like FMJ on purpose :

They used it successfully in the Military , or are aware and influenced by Military use.

Their particular gun is more reliable with FMJ.
Closely related , a particular gun is new to them , and they haven't yet had opportunity to suffciently function test with their preferred JHP

They categorically don't trust any JHP to reliably function . 50 years ago was an issue , with vague2 modern pistols , with vaguely modern design defensive/ duty ammo , rarely an issue. ( But still function test)

They Want , really, really deep penetration on purpose .
Could have validity if potential threats include very large angry animals .

alucard0822 · Jan 26, 2022

[Kev308];6546213 said:
FMJ if you need to shoot thru the couch or if the perp takes cover behind the doorway. Lol

Thing is, the FBI protocall also includes plywood, drywall glass and sheet steel penetration tests. Generally modern HP designs outperform FMJ in these, and outperform FMJ at increasing penetration/reducing deflection against angled barriers like skulls and car doors. The main reason is that FMJ generally have the harder jacket around the front of the bullet with the base exposed lead. Soon as a barrier hard enough to deform the bullet is hit, the jacket starts to flatten out, the lead core then deflects, deforms or fragments. HP are generally open in the front and the base is encapsulated, and either mechanically locked, or the jacket is chemically bonded to the core. When hitting something like sheetmetal, the cavity in front gets pinched shut, enclosing the core, and helping ensure minimal expansion/deformation, and the best penetration. In other softer barriers like clothing, the cavity is either protected like Hornady's critical duty line, or designed to shed debris, or expand once it finds a denser fluid barrier like soft tissue after penetrating clothing or drywall. Of course soft tissue is a different matter and FMJ will outpenetrate expandin ammo. With angled barriers the edges of the HP can start to penetrate and the bullet follows, reducing deflection off of angled surfaces. Ammo engineers are pretty good at what they do, and are usually proud to show off their test data, provided it went well.

This is a that same 124+p 9mm through wallboard and steel
View attachment 332826

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